Junior Member
Guard Break is an extremely powerful tool that leads to a lot of guaranteed damage and potentially guaranteed environmental kills when landed.
It's absolutely ****in ******ed that Guard Break is guaranteed after a parry for so many reasons I don't even think it's worth listing them.
A Parry should give everyone one guaranteed light attack, the same as the Berserker, or a damage equivalent. Nothing more.
This won't solve the problem of defensive gameplay being dominant, but it will make defense less rewarding and offense less risky.
The only time GB should be guaranteed is when it's being used to punish dodge and parry attempts.
Senior Member
No guaranteed attacks. Parry should change momentum and pace of the fight. Reward the parry without completely disabling the opponent.
Just going to repost here, because new threads on this pop up every day
Attacking is generally unsafe - because of parry. Not because you can parry easily, but because of the effect of a parry.
They must fix a few things for this game to work at High level.
1. Parry should not lead to free damage. Currently when you parry, the action is stopped and you get free damage. What they should do instead is make parry speed up your next heavy atack, but allow defence. No stagger after parry. Instead when you get parried your attacks and GB initiation are disabled, although pressing heavy attack will still allow a parry. This will make parry speed up the action instead. Put feints into the mix and it will work. When being parried dodging backwards will make you fall down, so you cannot easily disengage after being parried. The effect of the parry on the one being parried lasts only a moment, but for the one parrying there should be enough time to throw in two feints and still get the benefit of the faster heavy atack.
2. Blocking must be revamped. It is impossible to balance a block with one timing against two tiers of attack (heavy and light). Block should have two States. Half block happened instantly when you switch guard and then the direction indicator folks up over a number of frames, giving you full block. Half block can only block light attacks, but full block allows the blocking of both light and heavy. This will make heavy attacks more viable and with feints it may actually be possible to land one. When hit by a heavy attack in half block you can still parry a heavy attack.
3. Rebalance attack speeds. Light and heavy attacks should all be rebalanced so that all light attacks are between 15-18 frames. Heavy attacks should also be balanced across characters to be within an acceptable range of frames. Zone attacks, unblockables etc will then be classes as either light or heavy and fall within those ranges.
4. Move loops should be fixed, so there is a delay after using a shoulder Barge or headbutt combo for instance, so the opponent can react before you do another. Like with regular combos, where you cannot chain one combo directly into the next.
5. The damage flinch from light attacks should be removed, along with the guard change delay on some classes. This will make blocking lights more consistent.
6. Attacks after a feint are slightly quicker, giving a different timing on parrying those attacks
7. Moves like shoulder Barge, long arm, bash, headbutt etc only has an effect on people locked on to you
Senior Member
Parrying is not the main problem.
Lets look at it from a different angle. If I parry an obvious heavy attack and retaliate, it is not the systems fault - you called for it.
Guard breaking off a parry should not be possible, because it opens up too many crown control options. But a return attack needs to come. Otherwise, the reward for the high risk move (full damage taken if it fails) is not worth it.
Blocking is the core problem. Blocked heavy attacks should deal 2/3 of the possible damage. This would force the attacked to react - to parry. The attacker could build up pressure. Fainting would become more important as well. Parrying should also cost stamina.
Light attacks and spam are another problem.
Senior Member
Yes I agree that the free GB from parry is the biggest issue - especially since it is not balanced who can GB from parry with different match ups. I also think you're right about the risk/reward being balanced so parry is still worth it.Originally Posted by DrExtrem Go to original post
What about a middle ground? Like giving heavies after a parry heavy chip damage or just make them unblockable so they can only be parried? I know the Lawbringer already has that, but it's a solid mechanic, that still allows defence. perhaps just disable dodging too when parried so all you can do is trying to parry.
I also agree that feint is a great mechanic and should be the bread and butter of hitting. It already is to some extent, but it could be expanded slightly.
If heavy chip damage was put in, it has to be disabled on external attacks or it would destroy 4v4 once they fix revenge.
Having parry cost stamina may be too harsh on the exhausted condition. Some mixups the raider has to be effective will leave him exhausted in duel and 2v2.
Light attacks can easily be fixed. Make all light attacks no faster than the WL lights (that are very slightly slower than the first PK light). The second PK light must conform to this. Then fix the guard change speed of some characters. Fix the deadzone on controllers and lights will be ok.
Another issue I have with a free attack after parry though is that it makes some of the counter attacks completely pointless. That's why I'd rather see an attack after parry that can at least be parried and then let the free damage be limited to counter attacker characters getting a free light with no defensive options on that.
Member
Try playing LB, the best you can get from a parry is a light or feint the unblockable to another parry. The class is so unbelievable miserable in higher play, but noooo.... makes us LB mains wait another 6 weeks for your fck*ing disgrace of a patch. For all the trouble I´ve had going in duels or 1v1´s against a PK maining meta bit*h, I suggest making him really, really overpowered... **** you and have a nice "patch" day.
u/UbiGailhead Read this^ and tell the developement team to hurry the f*ck up!
Senior Member
It is indeed difficult.Originally Posted by Mr_Gallows Go to original post
If we give heavy strikes a nice boost to chipping damage (to put pressure on the blocking turtle), parrying without guaranteed hits would be a purely defensive tool. We would still have the problem, that reckless behavior would win. Brute force would triumph over smart play. In addition, it would put counter attackers in an even better position.
Every hero needs the ability to turn the tide and counter attack. Some might be better at but parrying simply is a part of fighting. Every hero could get a simple counter attack that is only usable after a parry. It could be an unblockable light attack, that would trigger an execution if it fatally hits. Classical counter attacks would still be more effective and deal more damage.
I still believe, that tweaking blocking and chipping damage of heavy attacks is a good way to put turtles under pressure. It would also make heavy strikes more viable, without taking the riskiness away from them. Fainting might need to be a bit easier in the process.
Member
I agree. Parrying a light should result in a free heavy attack though. The parry should set the guard to neutral and delay the next attack enough for the opponent to get a free light in there.Originally Posted by Inconsistent7 Go to original post
I really like the style of the orochi deflect free light although it is a tough move to pull off. I wish deflect acted like parry does now and parry was more like deflect (from an orochi standpoint). Free light or risky heavy on a parry. Free light or guard break on deflect.
It makes a lot more sense from a real life standpoint also. A parry in any form of fencing is often followed up by a riposte and the opponent isn't generally staggered or off balance (at least not for long). On the other hand a deflect causes your opponents momentum to keep moving towards that attack therefore setting them off balance. Hence why it is appropriate to allow a free guard break afterwards (or heavy/light).
Senior Member
Yes I agree with your vision, so really several solutions could work. When you say tweaking block - how do you think it could be tweaked to open up gameplay a bit more. I want mindless spamming to be easy to defend against, but clever play with feints, cancers etc. be easier to land.Originally Posted by DrExtrem Go to original post
But yes having both chip damage on all heavy attacks and a parry without free damage would not work. My suggestion was to apply chip damage to heavies after a parry in addition to giving it a slight speed boost and let it be a combo starter.
Your idea to give every character an unblockable light after parry is really good. I like that. simple and doesn't screw up anything already in the game. The warlord already has this, along with the valkyrie and warden on the top attack. I think a parry limiting dodge, draining stamina etc. Would put pressure on.
Well we agree on what we want, it just needs to be done in a way that works
Senior Member
My idea with the light unblockable after a parry was meant to be like the lawbrigers light riposte - a strike, that is usable fur a very short amount of time after a successful parry.
I think it is important to differentiate between a riposte and a true counter attack lx that is used instead of a parry. The warden in example would be able to either perform the upper light riposte after a parry or the crushing counter instead of one. The riposte should work from every angle. Since the devs need to look at the lawbringers kit, his riposte could be turned into a general attack for every hero.
Tweaking blocking is a hard one though.
I guess if we add the mentioned amount of chipping damage to the heavy attacks to force a parry attempt, a lot is already won. Heavy strikes would become more viable.the block is already weak against fast light attacks. Against a decent spam, it is actually a weak choice. The blocks switching time could increase after x-amounts of blocked attacks - the arm gets tired. This would get better after attacking. A bit, if you use a light and a good chunk, if you strike heavily. Only successful strikes would count.
If the turtle keeps turtling, his guard gets too slow and the enemy gets a chance to strike. For every tine being hit, the speed gets a little bit faster again - adrenaline rush.
Spamming light attacks should tire out the attacker with every strike after the third one. A finished light attack chain should have a small internal cool down before the next light chain can be started. Or if a fourth hit after a three hit combo is used too soon, the stamina drain is doubled. Spamming light chains now is less dangerous.
Dodging needs fixing too. I would suggest the titanfall method of charges, that are consumed by dashed, dodges and sidestep and dash attacks. Other special attacks could eat up charges as well - like the wardens shoulder bash. If the warden invests every charge into his offense, he cripples his defense in the process. This Increases the risk for the reward.
Senior Member
Your "weak arm" idea would most likely work, where a stamina drain on blocking would not. I don't think it would be transparent enough to be considered however. But the end result of people not turtling is a desires outcome none the less.
slowing down guard change would be horrible, because balancing light and heavy attacks at the same time against block would be a nightmare.
If you defend and I use heavy attacks on you, you should be able to block each and every one unless I fool you with a feint which may trick you. The problem is that every heavy attack I do (even feinted), risks being parried, giving you free damage. That means I only attack with light attacks, GB and special attacks, unless i can get a safe heavy on you, because you are disabled. So even with chip damage, it would be risky and parry would become even more central to winning a fight.
Feints should be slightly better. A heavy after a feint could be slightly quicker, but feinting should be risky as well to balance the reward. A light attack or a GB beating a feint is good, but then we're back ro guessing which sucks a bit.
They need to be sure there are lots of options, but also a windo to read your opponent.
