Shugoki's Demon grab is broken | Forums

[escacleo]

The 1 hit kill guarantee is what is broken. Full HP and fresh revenge and this one move will kill you. Broken

[Vordred]

i've said it many times, that despite the fact i main the LB, the LongArm and Demons Embrace should go, any move that takes away control of someones character for extended periods shouldn't be in the game, it's not fun to do and even less fun to be on the receiving end of. it's like Stun locking in MMO's. it's not fun to have zero control well you watch your character die.

and as a LB i'm guilty of doing this myself at time, in team games when someone pops revenge, i will just longarm them over and over, well my team beats them to death. as there is nothing they can do about it. don't think that kind of thing belongs on this game.

[Felis_Menari]

Every character can land a light attack on you if they throw you into a wall.

A competent player isn't going to be thrown into a wall in the first place.

Because it never happens, right? Every decent player is totally immune to GBs, at all times, with no exception....lulz. And when thrown into a wall, *heavies* are guaranteed. Now that aside, the problem in a duel/brawl match is that a Shugoki can do what no other character can; regain health without an execution. And throwing an enemy into a wall, guarantees this. I also think the onsta-kill property of Demon's Embrace needs to go as well. It does decent damage normally, is guaranteed on a wall stun, and virtually guarantees death in 4v4s in just a single grab. It does *not* need health then and insta-kill on top of that in order to be good or viable.

[Eddeh07]

Yeah I can't advocate a nerf of the demon's embrace, only because it will severly underpower the Shugoki in 1v1 situations. It's easy to dodge if you're expecting it, even as a slow character (I mostly play Lawbringer).

I do agree that I have come undone many times by a PK Shugoki combo in 1vX scenarios though, and don't really know how to counter if he constantly spams his embrace. Maybe a solution would be if we could outside parry the demon's embrace (but only outside parry, should still have to dodge if you're targeting him)? I dunno, seems like it would offer a small chance to escape, but maybe that's too complicated?

[Simi_Xiamara_]

No...... its just broken in 4 vs 4 no need to nerf the move just for that, you can give the guy some invunerable frames in that time and problem solved, focus on buffing kensei and lawbringer, also nerf pk dash speed and attacks speed (make it the same as other fast characters, 500 ms not 400)

Ppl complain about kensei but kensei has op feats...oneshot bow and a feat that completely trashes the entire system the game was built on...without these feats ya kensei is bad. No point in trying fight a kensi with unblockable on unless your confident in parrying his top dash light.

[Felis_Menari]

Shugoki's GB is no different from other classes in the way u get grabbed. So CGB is your answer.
Now, every class needs something to distinguish themselves. U are not playing foot soldiers.
I dont want to repeat myself on the matter of Embrace's OHK property. It has a condition to OHK, shugoki cannot pull that OHK out of his *** without being in one of less block of health. Oh and being killed by Embrace while low on health doesnt count as OHK

There's also...Charge of the Oni, I think it's called. It can have finnicky hit detection, but when it does land, I'm pretty sure it can lead to a guaranteed DE. It's all well and good, a big, slow guy having a nasty grab maneuver. What's not all well and good is the heal and insta-kill. DE doesn't need them to be useful.

[Dizzy4213]

There's also...Charge of the Oni, I think it's called. It can have finnicky hit detection, but when it does land, I'm pretty sure it can lead to a guaranteed DE. It's all well and good, a big, slow guy having a nasty grab maneuver. What's not all well and good is the heal and insta-kill. DE doesn't need them to be useful.

It's impossible to land a Demons Embrace after Charge of the Oni. I think the most I've ever gotten of the charge is a light attack.

It's completely fine as is. The move is slow and extremely telegraphed, and if the Shugoki misses he loses a lot of health. If you remove the heal from it, then you also need to remove the cost if you miss. It's a high risk high reward ability. Yes you can get it off a wall stun but it's your own fault for not being aware of your surroundings. Furthermore, Shugoki's throw distance is absolute trash for a fat guy. It's not that much better than Valkyries.

[Felis_Menari]

It's impossible to land a Demons Embrace after Charge of the Oni. I think the most I've ever gotten of the charge is a light attack.

It's completely fine as is. The move is slow and extremely telegraphed, and if the Shugoki misses he loses a lot of health. If you remove the heal from it, then you also need to remove the cost if you miss. It's a high risk high reward ability. Yes you can get it off a wall stun but it's your own fault for not being aware of your surroundings. Furthermore, Shugoki's throw distance is absolute trash for a fat guy. It's not that much better than Valkyries.

Naturally, if the heal was to be removed, so would the penalty for missing. That much is a given. Now, in some instances, being aware of one's surrounding doesn't matter. Some duel maps simply do not allow for significant distance from walls (sometimes it's a choice between ledges and walls; walls are clearly safer). All it takes is one missed CGB, and suddenly the health differential shifts more than in any other situation in the game.

[Felis_Menari]

So.... what exactly is the problem? I can do all of that with any classes, not just Shugoki. And u are getting off topic

It's not off topic if it involves Demon's Embrace, which is what I talked about in the post you quoted. And no, you cannot heal and deal damage simultaneously with any other character (executions, and 4v4 excluded, naturally).

[Dizzy4213]

Naturally, if the heal was to be removed, so would the penalty for missing. That much is a given. Now, in some instances, being aware of one's surrounding doesn't matter. Some duel maps simply do not allow for significant distance from walls (sometimes it's a choice between ledges and walls; walls are clearly safer). All it takes is one missed CGB, and suddenly the health differential shifts more than in any other situation in the game.

Then don't you think that your issue is more to do with map design than Shugoki himself? I agree, there are some ridiculous maps, like the one where you fight on the bridge. But Shugoki shouldn't have to be nerfed because of poor map design.

I think the move is fine as is. It's one of the most unique qualities of Shugoki. If he couldn't land the move off of a wall stun then it would be completely useless in all but 4v4 modes. As I said before, Demons Embrace has a lot of drawbacks as well as Shugoki's extremely poor throwing distance. Which makes it much more difficult to throw you into a wall. If Demons Embrace gets nerfed, then I probably won't use him ever again. He takes increased damage when his stance is consumed so I think it's only fair he has some way of recovering that lost health. I believe that when his stance is consumed Shugoki is left fighting with the same health pool as that of an assassin.