Combat balancing: Sharing your ideas, save this amazing game! | Forums

[ShieldNSpear]

Thank for for clicking this thread. I'm here because I've loved this game ever since the beta, and I can see problems that scare me. I'm scared because I don't want this game to die but I feel like as more people reach meta-levels of gameplay, this is when mechanical flaws really make their debut. These are the kinds of problems that no amount of number tweaking will be able to balance. Unfortunately these are also the kind of problems that are not easily fixed either. Balancing such a unique playstyle across all classes may even be impossible, but we've still got to try. So I spend a lot of time thinking because I've got a mindless dayjob, and I spend a lot of that time trying to come up with ideas with positive effects on gameplay. I believe my ideas are about as refined as they're going to get on my own so I would like to share them with the community. I encourage criticism here, try to find the pros AND the cons of these ideas. The last thing we want is a rework that creates even worse situations.

First, I believe heavies and lights should be on the same button. Tap for a light attack and hold it down for a heavy attack. Heavies should all be slightly charge-able for increased damage and to change the timing of the swing. This makes it so that parrying becomes more than simply memorizing the animation timing, but rather actually reacting to when the enemy's weapon is moving forward (or when the indicator is flashing).

Blocking and dodging need to consume stamina, albeit less stamina than the attacker's failed hit. This will add some much needed pressure to the defending side. Blocking or dodging while exhausted should still work, however it slows (but cannot stop) your recovery and your guard change speed and dodge speed are both reduced. This will help neuter the turtle meta just a little bit, in addition to giving a greater feeling of trying to catch your breath.

Lastly, guardbreak shouldn't be a stun. It should be an actual anti-defense tool. I suggest this mechanical change: pressing guardbreak at the beginning your swing turns your attack into a guard-crush that deals no damage but if blocked will drain extra stamina from the defender. Guard-crushing with a fully-charged attack still deals no damage but in addition to a higher stamina drain will also disable the defender's guard in that zone for a few seconds depending on the class/gear/feats. ("Guard recovery" to replace "Exhaustion Recovery" anybody? Swap "Block Damage" for "Guard Disable/Break"?)

Attempting to guardbreak without an attack should perform the grab/throw with a counter-window for the defender to MATCH the direction of the attacker's throw and reverse it, throwing the attacker instead. This allows map-awareness to be more prevalent because you often times can predict the direction of the throw based on nearby dangers, which also mixes in mind-games because the thrower might expect the prediction, encouraging them to NOT throw you into the spikes for fear of getting reversed (This also makes going for one-shot environment kills extremely risky, as they should be). Enemies that are exhausted cannot reverse your throw, but attempting to do so will still help them to not stumble as far before falling down.

With such a massive change in total to the value of stamina, I'd also recommend greatly increasing stamina capacity for all classes, or cutting costs across the board. In addition, the stamina bar should turn yellow under 50%, and red under 25%. Possibly even add an audio queue of heavy breathing that gets louder as you get more and more tired?

I love for honor, I love everything it wants to be but I desperately think it needs help getting there. For honor is plagued by bugs and balance issues and will die very quickly if we let it. The ideas above are my own ways to HELP the game out of the hyper-cancerous meta it's in right now. Whether you do or don't agree, I would love to hear your ideas of ways to save this game, or tweaks to my ideas that I hadn't thought of.

[Mr_Gallows]

my idea is fixing the most important core elements of the game. Apart from this some of the light and zone attacks must be looked af.

Attacking is risky mainly because of what parry gives the defender and defending is safe because it is risk free and offers great reward.

If parry was reworked in the following way, parry would still be good, but not offer free damage and not make attacking so risky.

Parry
First there are some changes and effects for the person being parried (attacker)
1. No stagger after parry, so the person being parried can defend himself from attacks and GB
2. After being parried you cannot dodge backwards or you will fall down.
3. Stamina drain like now
4. attacking and GB disabled for a moment after being parried, so the only option is defence (including CGB)

Then there are some effects for the one doing the parry (defender)
1. The next heavy attack is faster (maybe even the next combo starting with a heavy attack coult be faster and perhaps this heavy attack could chain directly into any combo chain).
2. The next heavy attacks could have increased chip damage, but don't know if this one is needed.
3. The next heavy attack costs no stamina.
4. The next heavy attack may inflict stun if it connects,
5. No options for light attacks, I know, but heavy attacks could get a bit of love through parry.
6. Several options for rewarding parry without, disabling the other person.

With this parry system in place, we could see some quick exchanges of parry back and forth, that would keep the combat going with no pause after a parry, but instead a feeling of urgency as parries speed up the action and change timings instead of breaking up the action.


Blocking
That leaves us with the more basic part of defence - blocking.

We have two tiers of attacks - light and heavy.
To match that two tiers of block would work very well - half and full block.

Half block
Getting to half block happends instantly when you switch guard. Half block allows you to completely block light attacks. From half block you can only parry heavy attacks. Heavy attacks hitting half block may do full or reduced damage. that's balancing.

Full block
as soon as you enter half block, the direction meter begins to fill up and after a number of frames it is full and you are in full block. When in full block you can block heavy attacks. The number of frames it takes to reach full block can vary from character to character, to give more balance options. The quick characters who are good at dodging may need a few more frames to reach full block.

For this to work, heavy attacks must be balanced in terms of speed across the board. they don't have to be the same, but must land within an acceptable range for balance to feel right.


A different approach to half and full block
Each attack in the game could also be given an attack powe, balanced with the speed of the attack. When blocking characters would build up block power over the frames after entering full block. When an attack and a block collides, the block power and the attack power is compared to calculate damage. My suggestion is that there is a cut off point, so if you don't have at least half the block power relative to the attack power, the attack does full damage. After that damage is gradually reduced, until half damage. If you match the attack power, the attack will do no damage at all. Sounds complicated, but really is a simple principle. Just a second idea for how to approach blocking, that doesn't have to change the characters.

[ShieldNSpear]

First there are some changes and effects for the person being parried (attacker)
1. No stagger after parry, so the person being parried can defend himself from attacks and GB
2. After being parried you cannot dodge backwards or you will fall down.
3. Stamina drain like now
4. attacking and GB disabled for a moment after being parried, so the only option is <defense> (including CGB)

So then parrying would simply halt their offense for a moment instead of completely stunning them? I think this is nice, lowering the reward for a parry might be a step towards breaking the defense meta. I think it might make parries feel a lot more like some of the other counter-attack abilities in the game such as the block property that exists during the wind-up of some attacks.

Then there are some effects for the one doing the parry (defender)
1. The next heavy attack is faster (maybe even the next combo starting with a heavy attack <could> be faster and perhaps this heavy attack could chain directly into any combo chain).
2. The next heavy attacks could have increased chip damage, but don't know if this one is needed.
3. The next heavy attack costs no stamina.
4. The next heavy attack may inflict stun if it connects,
5. No options for light attacks, I know, but heavy attacks could get a bit of love through parry.
6. Several options for rewarding parry without, disabling the other person.

With this parry system in place, we could see some quick exchanges of parry back and forth, that would keep the combat going with no pause after a parry, but instead a feeling of urgency as parries speed up the action and change timings instead of breaking up the action.

I can see how high-level play might end up bouncing a parry back and forth 4-5 times before it becomes too fast to change your guard in time. This would also give classes with faster guard changing speeds a HUGE advantage in parry fights because they'd be the only ones capable of parrying the fastest hits and thus could chain parries higher than any other class by default. Is your reasoning behind the heavies being free is to prevent it from becoming a "who gets tired first?" match?

That leaves us with the more basic part of <defense> - blocking.

We have two tiers of attacks - light and heavy.
To match that two tiers of block would work very well - half and full block.

Half block
Getting to half block <happens> instantly when you switch guard. Half block allows you to completely block light attacks. From half block you can only parry heavy attacks. Heavy attacks hitting half block may do full or reduced damage. that's balancing.

Full block
as soon as you enter half block, the direction meter begins to fill up and after a number of frames it is full and you are in full block. When in full block you can block heavy attacks. The number of frames it takes to reach full block can vary from character to character, to give more balance options. The quick characters who are good at dodging may need a few more frames to reach full block.

For this to work, heavy attacks must be balanced in terms of speed across the board. they don't have to be the same, but must land within an acceptable range for balance to feel right.

I think I can summarize this: Predicting a heavy will fully block it while barely blocking in time causes you to receive greater chip damage.
Originally I thought I found a few flaws in this idea, but after thinking some more I put each doubt to rest so long as the current 1v2+ mechanics stay the same. (successful blocks grant full block stance for a moment to catch rapid subsequent hits from other sides.)

Each attack in the game could also be given an attack <power>, balanced with the speed of the attack. When blocking characters would build up block power over the frames after entering full block. When an attack and a block collides, the block power and the attack power is compared to calculate damage. My suggestion is that there is a cut off point, so if you don't have at least half the block power relative to the attack power, the attack does full damage. After that damage is gradually reduced, until half damage. If you match the attack power, the attack will do no damage at all. Sounds complicated, but really is a simple principle. Just a second idea for how to approach blocking, that doesn't have to change the characters.

Defensive play needs a lovetap with a nerf bat, this idea is a nerf bat shot from a rail-gun.

[Mr_Gallows]

So then parrying would simply halt their offense for a moment instead of completely stunning them? I think this is nice, lowering the reward for a parry might be a step towards breaking the defense meta. I think it might make parries feel a lot more like some of the other counter-attack abilities in the game such as the block property that exists during the wind-up of some attacks.

Yes, that's the general idea - to make parry good without punishing people who take offensive initiative.

I can see how high-level play might end up bouncing a parry back and forth 4-5 times before it becomes too fast to change your guard in time. This would also give classes with faster guard changing speeds a HUGE advantage in parry fights because they'd be the only ones capable of parrying the fastest hits and thus could chain parries higher than any other class by default. Is your reasoning behind the heavies being free is to prevent it from becoming a "who gets tired first?" match?

The attacks don't continually increase in speed. It's just a speed boost for the attack after parry. Guard change should be looked at for all characters to balance light attacks better, so this would not be an issue for those characters. 4-5 times may happen, but put into this, feints, GB and special attacks. The general idea is to reward parries, without punishing the one being parried. And the attack being free was just a little balance button for the developers. Then they can lower the stamina drain of the parry slightly, because the drain should not be as heavy as it is now.

I think I can summarize this: Predicting a heavy will fully block it while barely blocking in time causes you to receive greater chip damage.
Originally I thought I found a few flaws in this idea, but after thinking some more I put each doubt to rest so long as the current 1v2+ mechanics stay the same. (successful blocks grant full block stance for a moment to catch rapid subsequent hits from other sides.)

You don't have to predict it - you should be able to react to it, but the timing will be much harder than now and when you throw in feints, landing a heavy is suddenly possible, but it should still not be too easy. Defence should me outplayed, not beaten by a single attack, is the general idea. Yes all external blocks can work as they do now - always full block. That will also give some better balance for a great player in outnumbered situations that does not rely only on revenge.

Defensive play needs a lovetap with a nerf bat, this idea is a nerf bat shot from a rail-gun.

I agree with your comment on this one... was mostly a brainstorming exercise. It would work, but it's too complex and comprehensive.

[ShieldNSpear]

The attacks don't continually increase in speed. It's just a speed boost for the attack after parry. Guard change should be looked at for all characters to balance light attacks better, so this would not be an issue for those characters. 4-5 times may happen, but put into this, feints, GB and special attacks. The general idea is to reward parries, without punishing the one being parried. And the attack being free was just a little balance button for the developers. Then they can lower the stamina drain of the parry slightly, because the drain should not be as heavy as it is now.

This actually sounds really good. I had doubts at first but I can tell you've put a lot of thinking into this.
One of my first doubts was that it would feel really similar to the current function of superior block property on heavy startup that I know at least Conq has. For those who are unaware, releasing the heavy attack button within the parry window (to clarify: pressing within the window results in a parry, I'm speaking of releasing the button) as a conqueror will result in a heavy attack is released immediately after blocking the hit, often resulting in unblockable damage if you time it perfectly.
I thought there were too many similarities at first but then I reconsidered in favor of having all counter-attack functions on equal grounds.

[Mr_Gallows]

This actually sounds really good. I had doubts at first but I can tell you've put a lot of thinking into this.
One of my first doubts was that it would feel really similar to the current function of superior block property on heavy startup that I know at least Conq has. For those who are unaware, releasing the heavy attack button within the parry window (to clarify: pressing within the window results in a parry, I'm speaking of releasing the button) as a conqueror will result in a heavy attack is released immediately after blocking the hit, often resulting in unblockable damage if you time it perfectly.
I thought there were too many similarities at first but then I reconsidered in favor of having all counter-attack functions on equal grounds.

Yeah exactly a common baseline for gameplay that works - the character specific specials, GB, feints etc. and then added on top to add variety and complexity, but not to make it work in the first place. If that makes sense.

[ShieldNSpear]

I would post ideas for mechanical changes to the parry function, however due to the parry bug described in the following thread, I feel like parry will be dramatically changed in the next update. I really hope it is.
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...(Video-Proof)/