AI enemies reaction to stealth play needs serious fixing | Forums

[Edgemoor]

I've yet to experience a time where there's no indication to the player at least one enemy is alerted, and during that "last known position" enemy reaction, your only recourse is to relocate and hide. Distance won't help, nor will a seemingly undetectable vantage point. You have to play within the game's scripting to have consistent success at it.

Once I became curious as to what would happen if I didn't relocate. They basically went straight for me and I got the indication I was being noticed, and then spotted. Up until that point I wasn't spotted and had not done anything to alert them. My team were the only that had engaged, with sniper shots from stealth, but they enemies did not move towards any of my team, just me. It's usually only two as well, and they always run there.

I've learned to recognise the bug and move before they get there. Made ghost mode interesting as I had to plan my attacks so I was positioned away from my team, but also far enough away from the target so I would have chance to escape.

[GiveMeTactical]

I was a bit intimidated when first playing without the orange clouds, and reverted to Spotting a lot, but since I've been playing on Extreme with no HUD or upgrades, I have found just the base level drone is pretty effective for detecting enemies via a white reticule outline, even through buildings. As far as knowing patrol routes, good luck with that. Trust me, in trying to perfect missions with these restrictions, I've seen several scenarios of AI placement, even retrying at the exact same time of day. In this game you really can't count on consistent AI placement, except vaguely so.

To each his/her own and how you exploit the game is also up to you. Personally speaking, I feel the drone is extremely intrusive and just like the teammate AI it has some sort of cloak shield so I opted to use as little as possible.

Being said that, playing it with all the assets and gadgets ON sure is more fun (ala Far Cry -esque) and this is how I am doing it right now.

The mechanic is simple. Enemies know your position, wherever you are, the moment an aggressive action is noticed (mortars hit, body found, kill witnessed, C4 blown, AI seen) and they then hunt you in that specific location. You can, move, hide in a bush and divert to avoid being detected and engaged.

It isn't an AI programming issue or weakness it is a deliberate gameplay mechanic. The question then becomes why is that mechanic in the game. The best way to improve it is to discuss what the alternate should be or could be. i.e the enemies don't know your location and start a random search pattern. How would that play out?

Shouldn't this mean that they should need to be paying me and not the original Devs?

I know many racers (cars & motorcycles) that had that naturally raw racing talent but they couldn't relate to their head mechanic what was wrong with the bike or what needed to be done to it to make it better or even better if the championship depended on them. And this is why there are so many great stories about chief mechanic and the racer winning championships instead of just 1 or none.

That's why I like to call it Last Known Position, because in reality, unless they're on full red alert, they can't see you, they just quickly investigate your last known. I'm pretty sure the reason they scripted it this way is because if the enemy had to search each time, it would be too easy to evade them. Hell, it's even pretty easy most times even with the last known mechanic. Most of the ones struggling with it are stubbornly thinking "I shouldn't have to move, I picked a good spot".

I disagree with you in the fact that if I have sniped someone from afar (200+ meters just so we don't go to far) with his back away from me and I happen to miss my shot, there is no way in hell that he should be able to pin point my position, not even remotely close, yet, somehow they find a way, then if you relocate and you shoot and kill some of them, immediately after you're getting blown away by mortar fire... things of that nature is what bothers me most.

And I know we hear radio chatter but if they do then the devs went as lazy as one can be because you don't see any signs of Unidad having a radio on them let alone the SB thugs... another fact that annoys the hell out of me.

If you were able to speak to real world snipers they would tell you there's no such thing as staying put being safe after evidence of your presence is detected, whether last known is estimated or not. In fact they will often move after a shot just in case, even if there's no reason to believe they're just suspicious, let alone looking for someone. Most think snipers stay in one spot a lot, but they are trained to keep moving.

Key word here being "Presence is detected" ... but sure, if I see that I get hunted when a shot is missed then I will move on, the issue then becomes you being hunted forever or go to another mission because if you don't you'll be constantly followed, even if you get rid of the bodies that spotted you because they telepathically told the other guy were you where.

Also, this is the part the boggles the mind, you speaking about real world snipers behavior but then being ok with rebel spotting inside a cave when there is no way in hell they can have LoS on the enemy if you don't. So which one are we following?

Real World Behavior

or

Gaming Behavior

They needed to be consistent is what I am thinking. Yes, there are some exceptions to all rules but the only consistency of this game is the inconsistency on how things are done.

Water under the bridge I know and this is why I doubt in my heart and in my mind (positive or negative) that anything will be fixed or updated in the following games but again... I am hoping they will make me look like an Idiot and give us a game worth of the name or at least half of the feedback already given from the past 2 years.

[Frag_Maniac]

Up until that point I wasn't spotted and had not done anything to alert them.

You sure about that? Keep in mind the game is scripted for enemies to be alerted by specific acts, shots whizzing by them that miss, spotted corpses, spotted squad mates, etc. Thus I'm more inclined to believe something, whether you or your squad, DID alert them, because in all the hours I've played the game, I've yet to see a case where an enemy just gets alerted for no resson.

To each his/her own and how you exploit the game is also up to you. Personally speaking, I feel the drone is extremely intrusive and just like the teammate AI it has some sort of cloak shield so I opted to use as little as possible.

Being said that, playing it with all the assets and gadgets ON sure is more fun (ala Far Cry -esque) and this is how I am doing it right now.

I prefer to say how one chooses to play the game, as in the more you play it, the better you get at your tactics, as long as you're observant and adapt where necessary. The term exploit, or it's slang "sploit", usually refers to taking every advantage of scripting quirks. For instance once players discovered what triggers the cleanup mechanic, many will face away from a camp after each kill, because they know the corpse will instantly disappear when you do that. The only time I look behind me after shooting is if I'm in a spot where enemies can potentially see you from that angle via walking along a trail, using binocs from a high vantage point, driving along a nearby road, etc.

I disagree with you in the fact that if I have sniped someone from afar (200+ meters just so we don't go to far) with his back away from me and I happen to miss my shot, there is no way in hell that he should be able to pin point my position, not even remotely close, yet, somehow they find a way, then if you relocate and you shoot and kill some of them, immediately after you're getting blown away by mortar fire... things of that nature is what bothers me most.

Then you're disagreeing with an imaginary perception of what I said. I never said in the real world an enemy would know your exact last known in such a case, only that it's a fair equalizer in a game where enemy AI are nowhere near as smart as a keen player, keen being the key word here. You're not only given ample tools to maintain stealth, your given advice on what to do when it's blown, yet so many just cry foul when it is because they can't handle the last known mechanic.

And as far as that last known mechanic, it's not entirely BS. If you ever have the chance to play the game with a very high end sound system and 5.1 DTS like I have, you know what it's like for an enemy to have a bullet nearly miss them while their back is turned. With such a setup you can clearly hear the bullet whizzing by, and even where it lands if it contacts something nearby. That would mean the enemy would have a pretty good idea what general direction it came from. Whether the game is scripted for enemies to react for that reason matters not, it's something that happens in the real world, thus it's not so far fetched in a game. These are the kind of reasons why snipers in the real world often relocate after each shot.

Key word here being "Presence is detected" ... but sure, if I see that I get hunted when a shot is missed then I will move on, the issue then becomes you being hunted forever or go to another mission because if you don't you'll be constantly followed, even if you get rid of the bodies that spotted you because they telepathically told the other guy were you where.

Also, this is the part the boggles the mind, you speaking about real world snipers behavior but then being ok with rebel spotting inside a cave when there is no way in hell they can have LoS on the enemy if you don't. So which one are we following?

Real World Behavior

or

Gaming Behavior

They needed to be consistent is what I am thinking. Yes, there are some exceptions to all rules but the only consistency of this game is the inconsistency on how things are done.

Water under the bridge I know and this is why I doubt in my heart and in my mind (positive or negative) that anything will be fixed or updated in the following games but again... I am hoping they will make me look like an Idiot and give us a game worth of the name or at least half of the feedback already given from the past 2 years.

No need debating detected presence again unless you read and understand what I said about nearby bullet sounds being very audible. Again, play with a decent sound system/format, then you'll know what bullets flying by sound like. Back turned or not, you can hear them distinctly, and where they land, and easily tell from what general direction they're being shot. This is also something present and obvious in good movies that have good sound engineering, so I don't get why you're oblivious to shots whizzing by an enemy not being traceable as far as general direction of the source of the shot.

I have since returned that $800 AVR marked down to $400 due to not being able to play PC audio with ARC enabled for TV, and sounding too digital with music, but I couldn't believe how much more aware it made me of enemy positions when playing with no HUD and minimap.

As far as Rebel Spotting goes, that doesn't even remotely apply to what I said about real world snipers. One is sniping, the other recon, get it? I also never said everything in the game is realistic, after all, it IS a game. If you don't even get that games always have mechanics in them that are more for management and flow of gameplay, despite being unrealistic, then I don't see the sense of discussing it with you. EVERY game out there, even SIM games, have at least some elements that are not realistic.

It comes down to this, if a tactical shooter made everything as realistic as possible, it would operate on real world time, it would literally take days, not minutes, to recon, and there's no way you could play it sp because no squad AI that any developer can make will ever match what real humans can do. Such a game would be so boring and tedious no one would want to play it. So be careful what you wish for. It's also pretty disingenuous and hypocritical for you to say you now prefer to play the game with all the aids, because not long ago you used to insist just having markers and a minimap was too many "Christmas lights".

At some point you have to decide what is acceptable in such a game and be OK with it, or just play something else. You say you want realism, but it seems to me you only want the kind that makes the game easier. Overall, the more real a game like this is, the harder it would be to play. So again, be careful what you wish for.

[LaMOi]

I’ve experienced what the OP highlighted.

One of the reasons I don’t use mortar often.

Same with a missed silenced shot from a sniper rifle. They go to the location you shot from.
I have used that to my advantage by leaving a mine there.

Whilst I will agree that it’s conceivable that the AI may guess the general direction/location the shot was fired from — the AI go to your EXACT location, that’s the problem. Obviously this is what peeps are complaining about I think.

[AI BLUEFOX]

To each his/her own and how you exploit the game is also up to you. Personally speaking, I feel the drone is extremely intrusive

It is the alternate to the Tac Map and soul swapping of the original, but I agree the drone is used for too much.

Shouldn't this mean that they should need to be paying me and not the original Devs?

No, not unless you suggest something that would work better in a game setting. If you do I'll ask for you to get paid for sure.

I am hoping they will make me look like an Idiot and give us a game worth of the name or at least half of the feedback already given from the past 2 years.

Well ..... the game is very worthy of the name and I'd say they've given us more than a half of the feedback.

[Frag_Maniac]

.Whilst I will agree that it’s conceivable that the AI may guess the general direction/location the shot was fired from — the AI go to your EXACT location, that’s the problem. Obviously this is what peeps are complaining about I think.

Apparently you didn't notice I said not entirely BS, key word being entirely. Look at it this way, even if they didn't know the exact location, if a player is just going to get stubborn and stay put, there's a good chance they'll be spotted even if enemies only search in the general direction. So the point is still valid.

The ones that want to get better at it rather than nit pick, adapt their tactics when things go south. Those whom don't sit there in their spot and blame the game for getting killed using flawed tactics. It's really as simple as that.

No, not unless you suggest something that would work better in a game setting. If you do I'll ask for you to get paid for sure.

Even the most successful of dev teams are not going to be paying people for mere simple suggestions. Even the creative end of the design team have a pretty good working knowledge of what is or isn't possible from a development standpoint. There is no such thing as a person on a dev team that has no tech skills. You're getting his hopes up Blue.

[LaMOi]

Definitely worthy of the name.

Go back and play GRAW 2 — the coop missions. Which were done by a different developer. GRAW was an awful game, and most certainly was unworthy of the brand. It was generic, scripted arcade shooter, but those coop missions were proper Ghost Recon fare. I mean some of the missions were simply remastered from the original game.
The thing is GR:W reminds me a lot of those coop missions and 3rd person mechanics (albeit without the baseball slide, which is a shame).


GR:W is definitely on the right path. And it gets a lot right.
Wildlands 2 needs to scale down (not streamline Ubisoft, there’s a difference!) and in doing so step up the quality.

[GiveMeTactical]

You're getting his hopes up Blue.

Oh thank God you came to my rescue... I was about to quit my job to start working on it!

[Frag_Maniac]

Oh thank God you came to my rescue... I was about to quit my job to start working on it!

No need for some sarcastic God complex, just stating the reality that a ton of gamers assume their ideas are going to be treated as more than just passing suggestions by devs.

[GiveMeTactical]

No God complex here, perhaps looking in the mirror would do you a world of good? No need to back track either, English may not be my primary language but there is no doubt confusion on what you typed.

Lamoi said it best so there is no need to argue any further.