Subtle changes to fix High Tier play and not break anything.. [lots of thoughts] | Forums

[Mr_Gallows]

@ Mr_Gallows
I think parry SHOULD punish the relentless attackers with both free damage + initiative change (such as it is now). Maybe adding some minor form of defense after parry (such as only being to parry back, like in soulcalibur) would be a step forward, but a stagger animation i think is needed, simply to punish and reward those that hit parry.

As for half and full block, that is a good idea, but maybe even going further as to make heavies do 50% damage over block would be good stuff also, as they are super slow, and impossible to not block.

@ Maaci
Stamina, at it's current implementation, is gross to say at least. It forces you to make literally 2 or 3 attacks (with feints even less, consider feinting raider's zone), and back off to replenish it. Exaustion is ridiculous mechanic, and once you get caught exausted by some LB, you can only pray to get out alive.. It again, rewards those that wait for you to blow your steam, and then capitalize on you. A waiting game. In my opinion - stamina should go away entirely. That bar, is not needed.

As for 12 fps attacks, see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm5L19vZiEg
And don't try to tell me you can react to 12 fps attacks (orochi, warden, pk zone attacks). Those currently, force you to adopt guard, to be able to not get hit by them. (read the video description as well, we aint playing in ideal "vacuum" conditions.)

As for 3rd finisher - i completely agree it doesnt have to be 3rd, and some chars should have it, some not. I just love the idea of soft feinting Kensei top heavy finisher, into side.. it makes good mind games. Would love those kinds of stuff on all chars.

Some damage off parry can be fine, but the risk of parry should be the same as the reward.

I can agree with only being able to parry after being parried. That would be a benefit. The stagger however would not allow this, so to get the same effect, what if after a parry your attacks had very heavy chip damage through blocks? That can be tweaked and balanced for all classes. I'd say you should be able to GBC and Parry after a parry but all attacks do heavy chip damage.

But currently the game revolves around chasing that parry and I'd like that to change, so parry wasn't the main damage tool. With a change to block, that would of course in itself shift the balance a bit away from parry as the center combat.

But currently the game revolves around chasing that parry and I'd like that to change, so parry wasn't the main damage tool. With a change to block, that would of course in itself shift the balance a bit away from parry as the center combat.

[Grozni.]

Hmm.. well, this game is the best out there regarding weapon to weapon combat. 1st game of this genre was way back in the '90s, and name is Weaponlord. Only game i can think of, that pulled off remotely as good weapon to weapon combat, is SoulCalibur.
Now, For Honor brings this weapon to weapon combat to a HIGHEST level possible so far. I think game SHOULD revolve around parry! As it's the most satisfaction you can get out of this game, catching that stray attack, with a (risky) move, and punish it! Feels so good doesnt it! But, parry as it is now, isnt a risky move at all, and i think it's the first step to change, and see how it plays off.

As for "stagger wont alllow it" - why wouldnt it? Stagger can be there to prevent block and move, but not counter parry. And after being parried, why not add the "stun" (remove HUD) effect as well, to make it even more challenging to get out of it? Coz, if you get parried, and can only counter parry, you can ofc, easy defend against incomming "punish" thus making defense again more powerful.

Game NEEDS this weapon to weapon punishes, or it becomes stale. It needs to be both tactical AND reactional. Precognitive, adoptive, fast, changable, like a breeze! We all want rewarding experience, level playfield, and expressing creativity in out play styles, not forcing players to use that one "OP" superfast move. I think we agree on this.

[Zolton48]

How can it be that the attack in defense at its speed is equal to the assassin's attack ????? Ubisoft I ask you to correct this deficiency, otherwise the game just loses its meaning

[Mr_Gallows]

Hmm.. well, this game is the best out there regarding weapon to weapon combat. 1st game of this genre was way back in the '90s, and name is Weaponlord. Only game i can think of, that pulled off remotely as good weapon to weapon combat, is SoulCalibur.
Now, For Honor brings this weapon to weapon combat to a HIGHEST level possible so far. I think game SHOULD revolve around parry! As it's the most satisfaction you can get out of this game, catching that stray attack, with a (risky) move, and punish it! Feels so good doesnt it! But, parry as it is now, isnt a risky move at all, and i think it's the first step to change, and see how it plays off.

As for "stagger wont alllow it" - why wouldnt it? Stagger can be there to prevent block and move, but not counter parry. And after being parried, why not add the "stun" (remove HUD) effect as well, to make it even more challenging to get out of it? Coz, if you get parried, and can only counter parry, you can ofc, easy defend against incomming "punish" thus making defense again more powerful.

Game NEEDS this weapon to weapon punishes, or it becomes stale. It needs to be both tactical AND reactional. Precognitive, adoptive, fast, changable, like a breeze! We all want rewarding experience, level playfield, and expressing creativity in out play styles, not forcing players to use that one "OP" superfast move. I think we agree on this.

Yes I think we agree on that part.

I don't mind damage after parry, giving the defender an edge. The problem is the automatic safe damage after parry. It changes gameplay to become passive, or other stuff to just be a means to an end - setting up the parry. I agree that parry should be important. It's awesome and fun to do. I just want more player interaktion after a parry as well. I like your stun idea after a parry instead of automatic damage. That allows player interaktion after the parry but puts great pressure on the former aggressor.

What would be awesome, would be parry into parry interactions, where feints can suddenly play a part in that as well. If you get parried, then you parry your opponents counter, but instead of attacking you do a feint to a GB. Nothing automatic, but putting player interaktion into parry follow ups as well.

Just want to add that I also agree that this game is the best attempt at a melee game, that isn't just a fighter game. The game has so much potential and the only reason I bother posting here is because I see that potential. I have played chivalry, warband and a lot of other games like that. I have been waiting for a game like this for years.

With a few changes - the game would be as close to perfect as anyone can expect from something man made.

[Grozni.]

Another great feedback! You fully understand what we all want from this game. A FLUENT action.. without those windows of inability to act, or do anything at all in your defense. Yes yes and yes! We want subtle changes to hit For Honor one at a time, and get our "as perfect as it gets", game

Stun in this game is greatly designed, with exact thoughts you put earlier - you can act! Even though your HUD is gone, you can still defend yourself. A great concept, i'd say, parry would benefit from this too.

My full parry (rework) idea would be:
- when parried, get stunned, cant dodge or attack or move, can only counter parry. (requires parry to be set on different button, either dedicated, or light attack, so its possible to bait it out).

[Maaci]

Back and forth is healthy gameplay. This is obvious to me, yet so many developers put in so many none-interractive designs in their games.

Anyway, i think classes can have their parry a bit different. Or something else.
Examples

Raider:
When he parry, he stuns the opponent(The for honor stun. The player can act 100%, but the hud is gone).

Warden:
When he parry, his next heavy attack is much faster and unparryable(an animation when an attack is unparryable would be needed)


Kensei:
When he parry, he starts a "parry combo chain", so right after he parries he can start it. Its 2-4 attacks or something.

Perhaps to add to this, IF the opponent blocks them all, The chain continues for the defender...and it goes on and on(if they choose to). But might need heavy animation work for ubisoft so maybe its unreasonable.. The cool thing could be that the tempo goes up and up if it continues so it potentially becomes chaotic.









Shugoki(the "wrestler" guy, i think this is him)
When he parry, some sort of "mini game" occurs. Shugoki gets an attempt to guardbreak the opponent 2times.
Normal guardbreak(same button)
Secondary guardbreak(feint button)

To defend against the "feint guardbreak", its just as when you break a normal guardbreak but in this attempt you press feint button instead.
All guardbreaks are defendable btw.







Assassins:
Parry and feint is removed, instead:
They can switch attack stance when they do attacks or combos. So instead of interrupting their attack when they feint, they instead switches stance with that attack(so it goes rather quick but still defendable).

When they deflect, they make somthing unique for them, lets take PK as example:
Defect->Switches position to the back of enemy and has frame advantage(opponent can still defend), but to defend against that position switch you need to press "s"(backwards button) and "alt" (target switching). Ubisoft would need to fix so that would work(dont think it works now in game)

[Mr_Gallows]

Another great feedback! You fully understand what we all want from this game. A FLUENT action.. without those windows of inability to act, or do anything at all in your defense. Yes yes and yes! We want subtle changes to hit For Honor one at a time, and get our "as perfect as it gets", game

Stun in this game is greatly designed, with exact thoughts you put earlier - you can act! Even though your HUD is gone, you can still defend yourself. A great concept, i'd say, parry would benefit from this too.

My full parry (rework) idea would be:
- when parried, get stunned, cant dodge or attack or move, can only counter parry. (requires parry to be set on different button, either dedicated, or light attack, so its possible to bait it out).

I thought about the inability to dodge in my first idea for parry - but the problem is that attacks that are unblockable and unparryable would mean free hits. If you limited it to dodging backwards being disabled, then it might work If you can only dodge to the sides, you can be baited into a dodge by feint. There can be no push back when you parry someone, so you can follow up quickly. You can even make it so that if people try to dodge backwards after a parry, they simply fall down.

But yes, fluent exchanges of blows, not interrupted by an inability to act. I am fine with GB disabling people, because you can counter it.

[Netcode_err_404]

I thought about the inability to dodge in my first idea for parry - but the problem is that attacks that are unblockable and unparryable would mean free hits. If you limited it to dodging backwards being disabled, then it might work If you can only dodge to the sides, you can be baited into a dodge by feint. There can be no push back when you parry someone, so you can follow up quickly. You can even make it so that if people try to dodge backwards after a parry, they simply fall down.

But yes, fluent exchanges of blows, not interrupted by an inability to act. I am fine with GB disabling people, because you can counter it.

Still curios about what ubisoft is doing regarding this problem

[Grozni.]

Inspired by Maaci
parry idea's and Klingenlied "inability to act", a new idea for Guardbreak arises!

I edited the main post, but who's lazy to go back, here it is:

- Guardbreak should open up opponent's defences thus making him unable to block for 5sec. Guardbreak can now only be followed by throw. (he can still dodge, attack, parry and do other actions, except block)

[Netcode_err_404]

Inspired by Maaci
parry idea's and Klingenlied "inability to act", a new idea for Guardbreak arises!

I edited the main post, but who's lazy to go back, here it is:

- Guardbreak should open up opponent's defences thus making him unable to block for 5sec. Guardbreak can now only be followed by throw. (he can still dodge, attack, parry and do other actions, except block)

Great idea

+1