Subtle changes to fix High Tier play and not break anything.. [lots of thoughts] | Forums

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For Honor at it's current state, favors highly defensive players. We all knew that. Apart from sea of random suggestions on how to improve a game all calibrated to personal needs, i decided to take on this matter with deeper thoughts, and try not to meddle too much with core mechanics and yet fix a game with minimum effort! Here's what i compiled.

STAMINA
Stamina at it's current state, punishes attackers immense. Stamina is drained heavily when you: 1) initiate attack, 2) whiff attack, 3) hit attack, 4) hit a block, 5) get parried, 6) try to feint an attack. I'm sure developer's idea of stamina was secondary balancing method of "overpowered" techniques and attacks. Example: if attack is more powerful or all around (like zone attacks) - it would cost more stamina. In my honest and humble opinion, this is wrong idea. Attacks should never be overpowered, but rather balanced internally. If attack is powerful and all around, it should be slower and easy interruptible / telegraphed. If it's weak, it should be faster, and act as a poke. Stamina - should NOT be used as secondary balance. Getting rid of stamina would do only good to this game, but i wouldn't go as far as to suggest it yet, im up for subtle changes such as these:

- Feinting an attack should refund stamina used to initiate it.
- Hitting an opponent's block should drain blockers stamina, instead of attackers!

CHAINS
Chains, at it's current state, are all pre-set. There are heroes that got 4 chains, and some got none, or their chains are as dull as "heavy heavy" and "light heavy". Chains should invoke one's creativity, and thus make attacking (and defending) more challenging, awarding, intuitive, and fun! Chains that have light attacks in them, are also killed with a simple block (conqueror's block even kills heavy chains), which is also debatable bad idea, but i'll wait for discussion on this one. I absolutely LOVE idea of chain finishers, such as seen on Kensei, which allows some creativity and mind games. I think all heroes should have this. In fact, Raider's Zone atk, that can be "inserted" in any chain, is amazing idea that only inspires some creativty and fresh air. So, a natural idea arises:

- Get rid of pre-set chains, and make ALL heroes have 3-hit chains of their choosing! (example: heavy light light) (or: any any any)
- Make everyone's zone attack insertable into any chain!
- Chains should NOT be interrupted on basic block (even light atk chain). Of course, this brings us to next point to fix.

ATTACK SPEEDS
Some attack's in For Honor are of unacceptable speeds currently. I'm not talking about heavies. Heavies are good as they stand, as they provide variety in speeds. I'm talking about some broken zone attack speeds, and light's. Warden / Orochi / PK zone attacks are only 12 / 12 / 9! frames of travel time. This ain't good. Even warden / kensei's top light is 15 fps and it's quite damn fast. It CAN be reacted to, with a good reflex, but these mentioned earlier, can not. Also - light attacks with 18 or more fps, are simply too slow and useless. Idea is to standardize light attack speeds of all heroes, to useful and balanced ones that are usable at all times. 15-18 fps is a reasonable "poke" speed for top / side lights, and should act same in chains as well. Many people will disagree telling that "axe is slower then dagger" which is true, but axe can hit with a handle, and make smaller damage. I'd say going for total realism would only hurt a gameplay, somewhere a line has to be drawn, and i would go in favor of game-play!

- Make light attacks speeds of all heroes 15-18 fps (tops / sides). Nobody enjoys the un-reactable 12-fps attacks of peacekeeper in your face.
- Slow down the broken speeds of zone attacks such as Warden, Orochi and Peacekeeper.

ZONE ATTACKS
Earlier i mentioned how zone attacks should get inserted into any chain, Like Raider can do. It would make game much much more flexible and plain better. Also, i love the idea of Raider's zone attack, which is slow, interruptible, cancelable and unblockable. Any char should have this. Also, zone attacks could use a 3-way attack like all attacks if they are to become balanced as Raiders. So, without further ado this is the suggestion:

- Zone attacks should be insertable in any chain.
- Zone attacks should be unblockable, slow, interruptible, and cancelable for every character.
- Zone attacks should make use of direction change, so it can be initiated from any side!

GUARD BREAK
Guard breaks got one major flaw as it's now, and this is it: GB's can catch the attacker! If i initiate HEAVY attack, guard break can catch me by surprise. This is simply absurd. Guard break should only catch dodging players, and defending players (those who stand idle). It's designed to counter DEFENSIVE actions, not offensive. So, this fix is also small, and should get going:

- Guardbreak should fail if opponent initiated ANY attack. (not catch the slow heavy or zone atk startups and GB them)

PARRY
Finally we come to a conclusion. Last mechanic that needs to take a deeper look: PARRY. Parry is core mechanic, and it's amazing. It has one flaw though. It is Little risk, huge reward. Currently, any parry attempt can be FAINTED (canceled), as it's executed by doing heavy atk. Result is - huge punishment if you hit it, and if you don't, cancel it. Parry should always offer huge punishments, but should be punished as well if failed. My idea is very simple here as well. Move parry from heavy to light attack, that cannot be canceled. Since we standardized light attack speeds, people can even use so called "parry bait" to punish parry-happy people.

- Move Parry from Heavy atk to Light atk, thus making it un-cancelable and somewhat punishable. (parry should never be no risk/high reward technique)

That's it for now, but i'm thinking about For Honor all the time, and how to improve it.
This is the game i've been waiting on for 33 years now. A perfect "simulator" of fighter game without overly complicated moves, because moves and combos should NOT be complicated to execute, but your mind set is what should make them deadly, complicated, and unpredictable. This game is it! (just needs little tweaks, it's still new)
Yours truly, ivanGrozni (Uplay: Grozni.)

First, i need to thank you for the amazing post.

Second, I agree pretty much with all. But speaking about stamina i think :

1)Block needs to drain stamina, especially the classes who are not supposed to be a block king.
2)GB needs to be harder to counter, and needs a Cooldown. When you try to push a guy from cliffs, if you press X at the right time, you should counter that fall.
3)Exhausted players cannot block NOTHING AT ALL except the classes meant to be good in counters. But they recieve EXTRA damage from every blocked hit.
3) Dodge while exhausted needs to be slower for assassins. Not that much, but defenetely slower.

For the rest I agree, except with standardized classes combos.
I think feints and lights block should continie an heavy combo.


We need a change, and we need now. The game is becoming a nest of meta lords. Best part of the game should be the gameplay, and the gameplay consists in beeing passive.

LOL

[The_Mensan]

It isn't, unless parry is redesigned. You can parry someone into a state of not being able to defend themselves. This would make the defensive meta even greater, as parry really is the mom and dad of the defensive meta.

Besides I think his changes are subtle enough to be viable - with the only addition of parry needing a bit more attention as I mention above.

Simple... Make parry NOT drain the opponent's stamina (the frame advantage and possible GB is reward enough). Parry should drain the defender's stamina. So every defensive and offensive action should take stamina. The game becomes more calculated, more intelligent and not a spam / defend fest.

[Maaci]

Overall good changes, however, dont like that combos become so generic for all.
Could see other sort of mixups in them instead, such as some class can guardbreak in a combo.

Some class can have a charge(sort of leap) attack and then start a combo and so on with that attack. So classes play different, and you need to play different agasinst htem.


New suggestion:
I have a "combo defender" chain as well.
Like could fit conquerer, his passive block superior gets removed and instead he gets this:
Replace his feint with this(he dont need one cuz he can feint with his block stance)

Then when he blocks and he times the new feint button, he stops the combo and then himself gets to hit one attack. Sort of like block->attack combo that is unique for him.
He must hit btw, if he do not hit after doing his block thing, he gets vulnerable for an attack himself(cant defend that attack)
feedback is apprecaited

Although take in mind that with this change i want to change parry to just switcihing the initative(the parry guy gets opportunity to attack) while blcoking no longer staggers.

[Mr_Gallows]

Many suggestions and although they are different, they all Seem to point at the same issues with gameplay. I hope UBIsoft tale this seriously, because with a few tweaks this game could become much better.

[Grozni.]

I also think that every hero should have some 3rd hit chain finisher like Kensei's or Valkyrie's.. It would be awesome, and would distinguish one hero from another. For those so thirsty for "unique chains" and calling these (any / any / any) chains "generic", i must say that this would actually make chains LESS dull, and induce freedom and more options without even having to add new animations.
Just being able to mix your lights and heavies more freely, would give us much deeper gameplay without sacrificing simplicity of 3-way attack and defend.

To answer @ Killerbrian26 and his attack speed discussion:
You propose that each char should have (MAX) one super speedy attack, and that would make game more dynamic, contrary to "standardized nonsense". Well, your suggestion actually forces people to adopt default guard, and wait for that dull and stupid move to come out, or get rekt by it (talking about 12 fps zones, etc.). Wouldnt game be far more versatile if attacks would be more balanced? Wouldnt it introduce more attacks used? On a contrary to this what we got now, only safe attacks are used. Warden's top is 15 fps, and it should be the fastest attack in game, as it can barely be reacted to. 12 fps nonsense SHOULD get deleted. That's what i meant on "standardize".

Thank you for the read, though ^^. All comments are welcome!

[Grozni.]

@ Mr_Gallows

First of all thanks for taking a read. I see you care about this game as much as i do, and want it to get some tweaks and become PERFECT! Yes! We should strive to perfection!

PARRY, your main concern, just as i wrote above, should have SOME form of risk put into it, to be on par with reward you get for pulling it off. What do you get for pulling it off: You get free GB or Free heavy! That's massive. Nobushi having bleed on you can parry -> gb you for 46 staggering damage! So, PARRY as it stands now can be CANCELLED, and that makes parry initiator 100% safe from failing in his judgement, eliminating any of the agressors "juke" attempts. Parry simply needs to be put to light attack, which will make it un-cancelable, or what FRAKTICA said - make it a dedicated key.. like E - perfect idea! (with whiff, you would be vulnerable for 10-15 fps, and there we have it, parry can be punished if mindlessly thrown!

[Mr_Gallows]

Yeah putting it on a different button will work. The feint button would be fine. But the reward of a parry must also be toned down. I think the stagger should go away, give the one parrying some benefits like a faster heavy after parry instead. Also the one being parried not being able to attack or GB for a moment would ensure the shift in initiative without free damage given to anyone.

If parry was fixed like that and your other solutions patched in, that still leaves us with one issue. Blocking heavy attacks is too easy. Blocking light attacks must be more balanced at the same time. The simplest way to fix this is to take the same approach to blocking as the game has to attacking. Two tiers of attacking (light and heavy) needs two tiers of blocking (half and full).

Half and full block.
When you switch guard, you will instantly Enter half block which allows you to block light attacks. It takes a number of frames for the direction indicator to fill up and become full block, allowing you to block heavy attacks. This allows the developers to balance both heavy and light attacks perfectly, where both will be viable attacks. With parry being defensive in nature only shifting initiative, this will open up the game a lot.

[Maaci]

For those so thirsty for "unique chains" and calling these (any / any / any) chains "generic", i must say that this would actually make chains LESS dull,

Iam not calling Your (any,any,any) generic, iam calling you out on the zone attack available in combos for everyone and then making them all sort of like raider's.
When i also said i overall liked your suggestions i didnt mean i agreed with them all.

For your stamina suggestion for example, it feels wrong.
The attacker do not get stamina drained but the defender will instead. So when the defender has no stamina(exhaustion mode), he is doomed? The attacker can just then freely attack? Feels like the only way to get out of that is to run away which shouldnt be encouraged.
Same scenario when the defender is kind of low on stamina, if the attacker drains it to exahaustion mode, he is in deep**** without the attacker doing any move so in that case he gets it for "free".

I dont like "free" stuff. Its like the mechanics play it for you.

Best would be to allow both styles, defensive and offensive without forcing someone out of it.

[Maaci]

Also curious about the "12 frames unreactable".
How do you know this?

I also think that every hero should have some 3rd hit chain finisher like Kensei's or Valkyrie's

Why? Why just the third? And why all classes?
Wouldnt it feel better if some got a finisher and some other classes got a "special" move as the second and some other dont. They get something else.

[Grozni.]

@ Mr_Gallows
I think parry SHOULD punish the relentless attackers with both free damage + initiative change (such as it is now). Maybe adding some minor form of defense after parry (such as only being to parry back, like in soulcalibur) would be a step forward, but a stagger animation i think is needed, simply to punish and reward those that hit parry.

As for half and full block, that is a good idea, but maybe even going further as to make heavies do 50% damage over block would be good stuff also, as they are super slow, and impossible to not block.

@ Maaci
Stamina, at it's current implementation, is gross to say at least. It forces you to make literally 2 or 3 attacks (with feints even less, consider feinting raider's zone), and back off to replenish it. Exaustion is ridiculous mechanic, and once you get caught exausted by some LB, you can only pray to get out alive.. It again, rewards those that wait for you to blow your steam, and then capitalize on you. A waiting game. In my opinion - stamina should go away entirely. That bar, is not needed.

As for 12 fps attacks, see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm5L19vZiEg
And don't try to tell me you can react to 12 fps attacks (orochi, warden, pk zone attacks). Those currently, force you to adopt guard, to be able to not get hit by them. (read the video description as well, we aint playing in ideal "vacuum" conditions.)

As for 3rd finisher - i completely agree it doesnt have to be 3rd, and some chars should have it, some not. I just love the idea of soft feinting Kensei top heavy finisher, into side.. it makes good mind games. Would love those kinds of stuff on all chars.