Member
For Honor at it's current state, favors highly defensive players. We all knew that. Apart from sea of random suggestions on how to improve a game all calibrated to personal needs, i decided to take on this matter with deeper thoughts, and try not to meddle too much with core mechanics and yet fix a game with minimum effort! Here's what i compiled.
STAMINA
Stamina at it's current state, punishes attackers immense. Stamina is drained heavily when you:
1) initiate attack,
2) whiff attack,
3) hit attack,
4) hit a block,
5) get parried,
6) try to feint an attack.
I'm sure developer's idea of stamina was secondary balancing method of "overpowered" techniques and attacks. Example: if attack is more powerful or all around (like zone attacks) - it would cost more stamina. In my honest and humble opinion, this is wrong idea. Attacks should never be overpowered, but rather balanced internally. If attack is powerful and all around, it should be slower and easy interruptible / telegraphed. If it's weak, it should be faster, and act as a poke. Stamina - should NOT be used as secondary balance. Getting rid of stamina would do only good to this game, but i wouldn't go as far as to suggest it yet, im up for subtle changes such as these:
- First of all stamina should NOT EXIST. It's a bad way to balance broken attacks. One can just spam those broken things, back up until his stamina is up, and repeat. Instead, balance attacks accordingly! (i know, this is drastic, but eventually should be done)
____________________
- Feinting an attack should refund stamina used to initiate it.
- Hitting an opponent's block should drain blockers stamina, instead of attackers!
CHAINS
Chains, at it's current state, are all pre-set. There are heroes that got 4 chains, and some got none, or their chains are as dull as "heavy heavy" and "light heavy". Chains should invoke one's creativity, and thus make attacking (and defending) more challenging, awarding, intuitive, and fun! Chains that have light attacks in them, are also killed with a simple block (conqueror's block even kills heavy chains), which is also debatable bad idea, but i'll wait for discussion on this one. I absolutely LOVE idea of chain finishers, such as seen on Kensei, which allows some creativity and mind games. I think all heroes should have this. In fact, Raider's Zone atk, that can be "inserted" in any chain, is amazing idea that only inspires some creativty and fresh air. So, a natural idea arises:
- Get rid of pre-set chains, and make ALL heroes have 3-hit chains of their choosing! (example: heavy light light) (or: any any any)
- Make everyone's zone attack insertable into any chain!
- Chains should NOT be interrupted on basic block (even light atk chain). Of course, this brings us to next point to fix.
ATTACK SPEEDS
Some attack's in For Honor are of unacceptable speeds currently. I'm not talking about heavies. Heavies are good as they stand, as they provide variety in speeds. I'm talking about some broken zone attack speeds, and light's. Warden / Orochi / PK zone attacks are only 12 / 12 / 9! frames of travel time. This ain't good. Even warden / kensei's top light is 15 fps and it's quite damn fast. It CAN be reacted to, with a good reflex, but these mentioned earlier, can not. Also - light attacks with 18 or more fps, are simply too slow and useless. Idea is to standardize light attack speeds of all heroes, to useful and balanced ones that are usable at all times. 15-18 fps is a reasonable "poke" speed for top / side lights, and should act same in chains as well. Many people will disagree telling that "axe is slower then dagger" which is true, but axe can hit with a handle, and make smaller damage. I'd say going for total realism would only hurt a gameplay, somewhere a line has to be drawn, and i would go in favor of game-play!
- Make light attacks speeds of all heroes 15-18 fps (tops / sides). Nobody enjoys the un-reactable 12-fps attacks of peacekeeper in your face.
- Slow down the broken speeds of zone attacks such as Warden, Orochi and Peacekeeper.
ZONE ATTACKS
Earlier i mentioned how zone attacks should get inserted into any chain, Like Raider can do. It would make game much much more flexible and plain better. Also, i love the idea of Raider's zone attack, which is slow, interruptible, cancelable and unblockable. Any char should have this. Also, zone attacks could use a 3-way attack like all attacks if they are to become balanced as Raiders. So, without further ado this is the suggestion:
- FIX the zone attack indicator bug! (it can be done by assigning zone atk to dedicated button.
- Zone attacks should be insertable in any chain.
- Zone attacks should make use of direction change, so it can be initiated from any side!
- Balance zone attack speeds (currently 3 zone attacks stand out, we all know who)
GUARD BREAK
Guard breaks got one major flaw as it's now, and this is it: GB's can catch the attacker! If i initiate HEAVY attack, guard break can catch me by surprise. This is simply absurd. Guard break should only catch dodging players, and defending players (those who stand idle). It's designed to counter DEFENSIVE actions, not offensive.
So, this fix is also small, and should get going:
EDIT: A new brilliant idea just flew to me like a bird! What if GB, would only open up defences of your opponent for a brief time (5sec?), and you cant follow up with a heavy, but only a throw, thus making him unable to block (but still able to parry, attack and dodge)?
- Guardbreak should fail if opponent initiated ANY attack. (not catch the slow heavy or zone atk startups and GB them)
- Guardbreak should open up opponent's defences thus making him unable to block for 5sec. Guardbreak can now only be followed by throw. (he can still dodge, attack, parry and do other actions, except block)
- Guardbreak should be soft-feintable into any other attack!
PARRY
Finally we come to a conclusion. Last mechanic that needs to take a deeper look: PARRY. Parry is core mechanic, and it's amazing. It has one flaw though. It is Little risk, huge reward. Currently, any parry attempt can be FAINTED (canceled), as it's executed by doing heavy atk. Result is - huge punishment if you hit it, and if you don't, cancel it. Parry should always offer huge punishments, but should be punished as well if failed. My idea is very simple here as well. Move parry from heavy to light attack, that cannot be canceled. Since we standardized light attack speeds, people can even use so called "parry bait" to punish parry-happy people.
- Move Parry from Heavy atk to Light atk, thus making it un-cancelable and somewhat punishable. (parry should never be no risk/high reward technique)
- Parry should NOT give free GB, as it's very different on many characters, some being not so strong, while some can knock you over from great distances. Free hit, is enough after a parry.
BROKEN STUFF THAT NEEDS FIXING
Shoulder bash. Mechanic that can simply boil down to this: Unblockable + Fast attack (already menacing), that can be SOFT-FEINTED into one of three:
1) attack.
2) GB.
3) Parry.
Scary as it is already now, it's utility doesn't end here. Even if you win 30/70 Wardens game, all you did is went back to neutral. You cant punish him for whiffing, or winning his guess. Absurd.
- Make shoulder bash and any mechanic LIKE it, not feintable. (or at least not feintable into GB so that it allows natural only defence from it - dodge)
That's it for now, but i'm thinking about For Honor all the time, and how to improve it.
This is the game i've been waiting on for 33 years now. A perfect "simulator" of fighter game without overly complicated moves, because moves and combos should NOT be complicated to execute, but your mind set is what should make them deadly, complicated, and unpredictable. This game is it! (just needs little tweaks, it's still new)
Yours truly, ivanGrozni (Uplay: Grozni.)
Member
I feel compelled to add this video, which showcases the speed of attacks of all Heroes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm5L19vZiEg
Member
epic video, mate!Originally Posted by grozni. Go to original post
Member
I'm just gonna throw in my 2 cents and you guys can decide how much worth is on them. Also sorry for the essay but I just wanted to say everything I had to say in one go.
-Firstly, don't expect replies to your post within only a few hours of posting it. While there are people who hungrily go through every post (I used to be one of them), they are not on at all times. Beyond this, some people just skim through posts. Sometimes it takes a day or most of one for people to see your post and reply.
-Secondly, while I like several of your changes (stamina and parry), I do not like the general standardization you seem to want for the heroes of the game. The heroes are MADE to be different and all have different strengths and weaknesses, so it makes sense for them to different. I'm just gonna go down your list of proposed changes and comment what I like and dislike about them.
-Your stamina changes I think are mostly good but I don't think a feint should give a FULL refund on stamina. Perhaps 50%-75%. As well as this, I believe that stamina cost is a fair way of balancing the game IF being out of stamina was more punishable or was more threatening. In it's current state, being out of stamina just means that you sit back for a couple seconds, just parrying and counterguardbreaking. Otherwise, as said, your proposed changes look good.
-On chains, I agree that there should be more but I think that simply removing them and allowing people to make them up on the spot is not a good solution. What this does is effectively makes all heroes feel more samey, especially with your proposed AS and ZA changes.
-Attack speeds should be different for everyone. Currently, some are too slow (LB and Raiders etc.) and some are too fast (PK and a few of Warden's). People with slow attacks just need them speed up in general but for characters with fast attacks, it's a bit more complicated. I want to make it clear that nothing should be faster than 12 frames (looking at PK's ZA) but there should be SOME attacks that are this speed. For example, the warden has 2 attacks like this. His ZA and his top light. What this means is that you are FORCED to revert your guard into one of these directions by default when playing against wardens and he can attack the other very quickly. IMO a character should have 1 of these types of moves max. In Warden's case, I would slow down his top light because the ZA is a more punishable move with more costs to it so it makes sense that it is faster. PK and other classes should follow the same rule, having 1 max super fast attack and the others being still fairly fast but not to that level. This creates a more dynamic fight as opposed to standardized nonsense
-Your ZA changes I feel are the worst. If EVERY character has a slow, interruptible, cancelable and unblockable ZA that can be used from every direction AND be inserted into ANY chain, every hero just lost some of that different feel they are supposed to have. Firstly, try to imagine how absolutely ridiculous it would be to see a PK or Zerk twiringl their blades long enough to make them have a standard ZA speed. NOW you get to think about the balance changes and development load this puts on Ubisoft. Firstly, as you've probably guessed by this point, I don't think ALL heroes should have slow ZAs, nor do I think they should all have fast ones. Making them the same speed again lowers the uniqueness of each hero. Making them able to be inserted into ANY chain seems a bit forced as well. Firstly, animation wise, some ZA wouldn't make sense if they were. Imagine a warden doing his double top heavy chain where his sword ends very low and all of a sudden it is shoulder height swinging for your face. It simply doesn't make sense and removes ability to punish a whiffed attack if they follow it up with a ZA while you are in the start of an animation for an attack. Making it used from any direction also would simply be weird animation wise but also a bit unbalanced. Part of reason ZA's with speeds like the PK's and the Wardens haven't been nerfed (despite popular demand since b4 the closed beta) is because they can only come from 1 side. Your guard should always revert to that zone while not blocking attacks. On the animation side, it wouldn't make sense for a char like PK to change her dagger hand so she can ZA only to change it right back. Also, as none of the heroes have a top ZA, they would need to add animations for that (even though it would defeat the point of a ZONE attack if it went from high to low and not side to side) which would require more mo-cap and dev time. Finally making all of them unblockable defeats the purpose of picking chars like the Raider who can reliably do unblockable attacks when you are ganking.
-On terms of Guard Breaks, I think the way it is is fine. I think maybe if anything just decrease the amount of frames that you have in the startups of heavy attacks that you can be guardbroken. Don't think this needs to be changed much.
-Your proposed changes for parry are very nice and I'm very much ok with this if the devs implement this. you should note that some characters CAN feint their light attacks such as the Nobushi using her hidden stance
Member
I pretty much agree with everything you say except GB.Originally Posted by Grozni. Go to original post
Currently as it stands Gb can be initiated either at the startup of an enemy attack, or dodge/defensive action, i overall like the gb idea of the startup... but i see your concern, take in mind some classes can punsih you heavily for trying to gb "Orochi/PK, due to their sheer speed of light attacks, so overall i think the gb is in a good spot at the moment.
Ps. 10/10 for quality work on the forum post overall man, i hope the Devs see it
Senior Member
Great thread Grozni!Originally Posted by Grozni. Go to original post
STAMINA
I agree with your changes, but I think with blocking draining stamina, it would be an issue with light attacks. But it could be implemented only for heavy attacks. I assume you still believe attacking should cost stamina, but that the extra cost for being blocked is transferred to the defender - that I can agree with. blocking being free is an issue.
CHAINS
I really love your idea with the custom combo chains, but unfortunately it would require extensive animation work I think. I do like that light attacks are interrupted and chains stopped by a block. Otherwise there should be a way to punish combos, to prevent to fighters just taking turns doing combo spam. I would like to have the ability to insert a feint without interrupting the combo chain. I agree with every character having an attack they can use to end a combo. It gives some freedom to the player.
ATTACK SPEEDS
I agree on your tweak of attacks speeds. It would give a more considered and less spammy game. I do however think some heavy attacks are too slow and they should be slightly quicker.
ZONE ATTACKS
Good idea with being able to insert the zone attack. The raider can do it, the valkyrie has the sweep. I don't think it has to be a zone attack for everyone, but something along those lines would open up gameplay.
GUARD BREAK
I agree completely.
PARRY
Parry is great and while it is very easy against heavy attacks, it is a skillful move. I think the biggest issues with the game currently is not the fact that defence is easy. It's because defence pays off in terms of doing damage. I don't like moving it to light attack, because that will create other issues. I suggest moving it to a new button instead. When you attempt a parry, you will then, if no attack connects, be staggered and left open to an attack or a GB. On consoles I suggest using the feint button, so if you're not currently doing an attack the feint button does a parry. That would allow the developers to balance the risk/reward of parry. The timing of this needs to be spot on, because the parry window should end a few frames after the feint window, so it's still a reactionary move. The second change I would make was to give the defender who did a parry, some benefits instead of staggering the attacker. After a parry your next attack would be faster, your GB would be faster and if your character has any, you can use his special parry moves. With no stagger the one being parried would be able to defend himself, but timing would be slightly harder. The special moves from parry should be rebalanced with this in mind of course. After a parry the only disabilities for the person being parried should be putting dodge on cooldown for a second or two, the usual stamina drain and the inability initiate an attack or GB for a number of frames.
As for the attack speed video, it's really silly when you compare it to the guard change.
https://youtu.be/hNTWO7W1VrI
https://youtu.be/Gm5L19vZiEg
This should be balanced so you can in fact block light attacks. It should also be balanced so some heavy attacks are slightly faster. Would love to see the frame data on heavy attacks. The guard change should be the same across all characters, and as low as possible.
Member
The problem is that you are changing TOO MUCH. Too much change generally lead to people leaving a game, that's why it would never happen from a monetary point of view. The logic is that the people who stayed after a while at least like SOME ASPECT of the game.Originally Posted by Grozni. Go to original post
You only need to change ONE THING to get rid of the defensive meta.
Once stamina is drained, you cannot block/parry and your dodge is slower. You have no strength left, you should not be able to block a hit from someone swinging an axe at you.
Every block drains some stamina (a lot for a heavy, a little bit for a light). That's it... Problem solved.
Senior Member
It isn't, unless parry is redesigned. You can parry someone into a state of not being able to defend themselves. This would make the defensive meta even greater, as parry really is the mom and dad of the defensive meta.Originally Posted by The_Mensan Go to original post
Besides I think his changes are subtle enough to be viable - with the only addition of parry needing a bit more attention as I mention above.
Senior Member
Yes. The idea behind parry is good - that you can use it to turn things around. The current implementation just makes the counterattacking automatic and unavoidable. This creates a meta where you spend the fight chasing parries to win.Originally Posted by FRAKTICA Go to original post
Parry would be fine if it simply let the defender get the next strike and the one being parried could only defend. Not much needs to change really - just revamp the parry stagger to disable attacking for a moment. Once that is done they can tweak at balance it, by adding a bit of speed to any heavy attack after a parry and other dynamic benefits, that maintains a situation where agression isn't punished by automatic damage.
sad smiley...