The meta has destroyed the movesets | Forums

[Vingrask]

(Sorry for bad english)
For a long time i thought this game would be my game of the year, the basics of the game are really good, but there are so many things destroying it (mostly the parry + gb combo)

Back in beta i learnt the basics, and i learnt that i where really good at parrying, so i tried to find a charakter that focused on parrying, and since the warlord was the only one with parry in his moveset i chose him.

The big problem is that in his moveset he can do a parry + gb + light, and because of that i thought that he was the only one that can do it, but NO everyone can do it, so why is it showed then???

But the worst thing is that if you do a heavy instead og a light, you do more damange and it is still a guaranteed hit

Because of this and all the knight spamming with warden, conqueror and lawbringer, i dont play the game any more.

This i only one of the many problems, but i just want to know if anyone else have the same feeling, or know a way to break the parry + gb and spam meta?

Thanks for your time

Same feeling.

I was making a huge post about this, about how you don't need to learn and master the hero moveset, just the core mechanics of the game itself. I'm tired of have a hard time against an enemy which don't do nothing but abuse the faster attack of the hero, parry and gb. There is no combo attempts. There is no complex moves to get me. Nothing. While I use 100% of my hero, players which use what, 10%(?) can give me a really hard time.

I'm playing less. Much less than I like. Much less than a game we paid 60 bucks should.

[Vingrask]

Not being able to use "all" your movests isn't much of a problem for me. If you've been playing 3D fighting games, then you know there are always "core" movesets you concentrate on, and most of the other combos and flashy moves are used either partially, or rarely, or sometimes never. So, even if the meta is fixed, players will still stick to core moves. (= in other words, it's not meta-related thing)

Rather, the problem with the meta isn't necessarily with how you can't use some moves well in actual combat, but rather the general imbalance we have in the form of quickfire close-range Unparriable+Unblockable movesets -- The spams.

Most people realize the gravity of the situation with the turtling, but they rarely pay attention to the exaggerated imbalance from it. The meta demands it so everyone turtles, and therefore most movesets are too dangerous to use... and yet, there are those guys that still can just 1-button spam their way to victory. For classes that don't have such spams, this makes it double the frustrations because not only their own attacks are sealed off due to the dangers of attacking in turtle meta, but also their own turtling is smashed apart by unblockable-unparriable-forced50/50-with guaranteed extra damage combos..

When we have only ~5 moves and we cannot/need not use all of it, well, something is wrong. We are devolving and I think that wasn't the point of For Honor. The game was a huge success because the unique combat system. Now the game is a damn failure because the boring and common combat system (like Chivalry).

Fight's flow need to change. Feint/Parry>GB is a common move and all you need in the end. Something is really, really wrong. It's like play League of Legends only using summoner spells and be able to compete.

[x_Senduko_x]

U want to beat the defensive meta? Play warden he has the right toolkit to brak through this meta

[Vingrask]

Not really. Like said, in any game there consists of basics, fundamentals you use, and then the rest are situational.

In the end, Boxing, for example, is only 4 punches -- the jab, straight, hook, and uppercut. Everything else is a variation, expansion and relies on the situation.

Same in basically ALL 3d fighting games. The most important skills are the simple basics, usually the jab and the one-two punch, then a reliable juggling lift attack, and a knockdown skill. These always make up for like 70~80% of the moves used, and everything else in the huge list of moves in most fighting games, all share the rest 20%.

But here is exactly why For Honor can be different. The pool of moves is already tiny, the problem is nobody is even using it. Feint/Parry>GB is dominant and this isn't fun. Boxe lost a lot of space for MMA because of variations. Street Fight EVO is a success (with the fighting niche, of course) because variations, even the combos being basicaly repeated, you see variations during a fight, and don't miss the combo is a feat.

The Naruto games are fun to fight even having a little pool of moves because there defense is a way to avoid/deny damage, not way to win, if you know what I mean. The only way to win is attacking and defense can even be used as a tool for it, but guarantee nothing.

We need more chain oportunities and this can be archieved just rethinking the defense. Heroes already have interesting moves, and we don't need a combo chain, this is not what I mean. But keep attacking when you have the timing lead and enough stamina should be possible. Today there is too much stare and everyone feinting/parrying to gb'ing. We have the parry as the way to win and the feint is just a secondary tool you use to, in fact, avoid being damaged.

You feint to bait a parry attempt to you parry.
You feint to bait a parry attempt to you gb.
You parry to gb.
-Sadly, this is For Honor.

[NiceBoatUS]

Not really. Like said, in any game there consists of basics, fundamentals you use, and then the rest are situational.

In the end, Boxing, for example, is only 4 punches -- the jab, straight, hook, and uppercut. Everything else is a variation, expansion and relies on the situation.

Same in basically ALL 3d fighting games. The most important skills are the simple basics, usually the jab and the one-two punch, then a reliable juggling lift attack, and a knockdown skill. These always make up for like 70~80% of the moves used, and everything else in the huge list of moves in most fighting games, all share the rest 20%.

In other games you have multiple viable aggressive moves. You have pokes, you have risky combo starters, 50/50s and so on.

You want to get aggressive in For Honor? Here's a pretty much complete list of things that you can do:
- running shenanigans (assuming your character has a good running tackle)
- warlord headbutt
- warden bash shenanigans
- warden zone/overhead light attack 50/50 against non-dashing classes
- orochi's overhead light/zone
- PK lights/zone
- single valkyrie spear strikes

... and that's pretty much it. Conqueor used to be up there, but now that his shield bash is punishable, he became unusable like everyone else. Most characters don't have any ways to start attacking. None at all. Running tackles aside, there are 6 viable attack patterns across the entire game. Everything else is considered too risky/too parriable to use without a good setup against a decent opponent. I mean, you know something's wrong when you hear someone as good as Petemoo say that he was afraid to use his light attack, ever in Klyka's exhibition match vs Warden because he knew that he'd get parried.

Let that sink in for a moment. Six viable ways to initiate aggression across the entire game. And most of them aren't even real strikes - they're bashes. In fact, all of this stuff aside from Orochi's 50/50 (which is essentially the worst option on the list) is consiered toxic by the community. I mean holy moly, you have more perfectly tournament-viable ways to unleash a can of whoop-*** on a single character in games like MK, SF or Tekken.

At the very least, Ubisoft needs to find a way to make all the 15/18 frame moves (the vast majority of light attacks) perfectly viable in a competitive setting or this game is donezo.

[Qarismah]

Rather, the problem with the meta isn't necessarily with how you can't use some moves well in actual combat, but rather the general imbalance we have in the form of quickfire close-range Unparriable+Unblockable movesets -- The spams.

Moves like the warlord's headbutt are the biggest problem with the game right now aside from the defense meta. I think that there should not be any attacks that are unparriable, unblockable, untechable, and borderline undodgeable. It makes no since that a tiny woman with a dagger and a short sword can PARRY a huge man swinging a battle axe with full force, but no one can block a headbutt...

Having moves that are unparriable/unblockable/untechable are protecting the defense meta, and so long as they exist people will always say that there are ways to open up a turtle. The problem is that only a few characters have access to these moves and the rest of them are left with no safe offense starters.

[Snickers-Bar]

In the last devs stream/interview they said parry will be nerfed.
Hopefully will hit hard.

[Brologna_Xeno]

Anyone miss launch's more difficult CGB?

I think that may be a key issue. They've made teching Gaurd Breaks too easy. Now the only way to 'Guard Break' is if you land a guaranteed GB (grab someone in early/recovery frames of a feint/attack/dash or a parry etc, they cannot tech this GBs, even if they input correctly). GB is suppose to counter block from idle, that just isn't the case anymore because of how easy they've made CGB, I think that's part of the turtle meta problem.

You cannot GB someone who is attacking you (except counter). Best way to defend against GB was to stay on the attack. That's gone.

[Vingrask]

Anyone miss launch's more difficult CGB?

I think that may be a key issue. They've made teching Gaurd Breaks too easy. Now the only way to 'Guard Break' is if you land a guaranteed GB (grab someone in early/recovery frames of a feint/attack/dash or a parry etc, they cannot tech this GBs, even if they input correctly). GB is suppose to counter block from idle, that just isn't the case anymore because of how easy they've made CGB, I think that's part of the turtle meta problem.

You cannot GB someone who is attacking you (except counter). Best way to defend against GB was to stay on the attack. That's gone.

GB shouldn't even be a thing so important as it is today. The only guaranteed damage from a GB should be the one when you pull people over walls, punishing bad positioning. With that a fight start to flow based on moves, not just on "how do I do to gb him/her?". Remove the guaranteed damage from gb and we can even let parry the way it is.

[MisterGuyMan]

Counter Guard Break is the real culprit. Guard Break is ironically named because the thing that is supposed to beat guarding, actually loses to guarding. While guarding, you literally just beat GB with the push of a button.

GB needs to be made viable. It's an anti-block mechanic that is available to everyone that is useless. You shouldn't feel like you're safe just because you're defending. GB should give chip damage or drain stamina from the opponent or both if you really want GBC in the game. It can save you from a GB but at a you can't do it to defend perpetually.