Warden's shoulder spam. After all it's probably fine. | Forums

[meppho]

I'll try to make this quick, since it's been discussed many times.

I was one of those that, despite playing Warden as main myself, think the shoulder bash is too strong.

After having to deal with other wardens abusing it, I've come to the conclusion that it might in fact be one of the best moves in game, as design goes.

When you see the guy charging, you have 3 possible courses of action:
- You dodge. This wins against a regular bash, loses to GB cancel.
- You stand your ground. This wins against GB cancel, loses to regular bash.
- You attack. This wins against both, loses against feint.

The third option takes fast execution on both sides, I'd say it favors the defender (the one stopping the bash with a light attack).

This goes way beyond the stale feint-parry game, and is much more similar to regular fightinig games.

Think about the concept of "oki", or wake up game, in any 2D fighter.


For these reasons, I now think Warden's shoulder bash should stay as it is.

[Mr_Gallows]

No matter how it is from a balance perspective I hate it from a gameplay perspective. I like reactionary combat and not guessing.

That said I find it way too easy to use compared to how well you can punish it.

[DrExtrem]

I am ... somehow ... maining warden as well.

Imvho, you are right. It is one if the best designed moves in the game.

But ...

... What is a key difference to classic fighting games? Life and time to kill. In normal fighting games, characters usually have more health and vortexing an enemy is the key to defeat them. From the videos I have seen, the time to kill is higher, rhe moves are faster and people don't engaged in staring contests. In addition, a nicely executed vortex is the "high art" of fighting games and not easy to do.

From this point of view, we have to adjust hoe vortexing in this game works. Follow ups, should not be able to follow, follow ups. The shoulder bash - light attack vortex is so deadly, because it leaves the enemy almost no time to react - especially in a multiplayer environment. This makes it harder to get out if a vortex, than pulling it off.

This can be applied to most vortex moves and follow up attacks in the game. There should be some kind of internal cool down after lets say the warlord's headbutt and the conquerors shield bash, to prevent monotone gameplay and cheap vortex gameplay.

This is not warden exclusive but the problem is, that the warden is pretty limited without it. The shoulder charge does not even need to be altered. It should lead to the three possible executions but the follow ups need adjustment - all of them.

Once you get caught by then, you can basically write gg or hope to counter spam the enemy to even the odds again.

[Pingu-mlg]

No matter how it is from a balance perspective I hate it from a gameplay perspective. I like reactionary combat and not guessing.

That said I find it way too easy to use compared to how well you can punish it.

You won't like the end-game then. Which is mostly mind games and punishing mistakes.

[DrExtrem]

End game is the wrong term, because it suggests, that there is nothing new to learn.

It is high level gameplay, that is a steady progress of adjusting movesets and thinking outside of the box.

[Mr_Gallows]

You won't like the end-game then. Which is mostly mind games and punishing mistakes.

Nothing wrong with that, as long as you can still react. A few moves are 50/50 or worse, while most allow you to react. If the shoulders bash was hard to do, but it's not.

When you tell your opponent "good guess" instead of "well played" it's sad

[meppho]

No matter how it is from a balance perspective I hate it from a gameplay perspective. I like reactionary combat and not guessing.

That said I find it way too easy to use compared to how well you can punish it.

Then you press light attack on reaction, doesn't sound that complex.

The third time you do that, expect a feint into parry tho, because like it or not there's a guy on the other hand, making "mind games" an inevitable part of any confrontation.

If it was just guessing, I'd agree. But the way the "third option" (going by my previous listing) works, balances it out imho.

[Mr_Gallows]

Then you press light attack on reaction, doesn't sound that complex.

The third time you do that, expect a feint into parry tho, because like it or not there's a guy on the other hand, making "mind games" an inevitable part of any confrontation.

If it was just guessing, I'd agree. But the way the "third option" (going by my previous listing) works, balances it out imho.

I'm not sure that I disagree but I don't think I fully agree 😄

Yes, mind games are fine, the thing I don't like is the weak punish of such a powerful and easy move

Valkyries legsweep is much easier to punish. I also like hers better because she can use it as a combo finisher.

A vortex looks stupid in this game. It's like suddenly smash bros hacked the game.

[AKDagriZ]

I am ... somehow ... maining warden as well.

Imvho, you are right. It is one if the best designed moves in the game.

But ...

... What is a key difference to classic fighting games? Life and time to kill. In normal fighting games, characters usually have more health and vortexing an enemy is the key to defeat them. From the videos I have seen, the time to kill is higher, rhe moves are faster and people don't engaged in staring contests. In addition, a nicely executed vortex is the "high art" of fighting games and not easy to do.

From this point of view, we have to adjust hoe vortexing in this game works. Follow ups, should not be able to follow, follow ups. The shoulder bash - light attack vortex is so deadly, because it leaves the enemy almost no time to react - especially in a multiplayer environment. This makes it harder to get out if a vortex, than pulling it off.

This can be applied to most vortex moves and follow up attacks in the game. There should be some kind of internal cool down after lets say the warlord's headbutt and the conquerors shield bash, to prevent monotone gameplay and cheap vortex gameplay.

This is not warden exclusive but the problem is, that the warden is pretty limited without it. The shoulder charge does not even need to be altered. It should lead to the three possible executions but the follow ups need adjustment - all of them.

Once you get caught by then, you can basically write gg or hope to counter spam the enemy to even the odds again.

Thank for saying it.And thanks to the OP for the tips I have very bad time fighting against a skilled warden.Especially those who do the shoulder bash cancel to GB .On top of that they are very good defensively.

[meppho]

I'm not sure that I disagree but I don't think I fully agree ��

Yes, mind games are fine, the thing I don't like is the weak punish of such a powerful and easy move

Valkyries legsweep is much easier to punish. I also like hers better because she can use it as a combo finisher.

A vortex looks stupid in this game. It's like suddenly smash bros hacked the game.

I'm rendering a quick video of a single round against a guy who forced me to adapt to his bashing.
I'll edit as soon as it's on youtube, so I can give a practical example of how it's actually manageable (especially once you get to know the opponent, as this was not first round as you'll see).

[edit]
Ok, here goes. Before that I need to say this tho: please do not focus on the other guy as a user. I didn't hide his name as it would mess up the whole video, but he was a fair sport, in one of the best 2v2s I had so far. This is in no way a "look at this scrub spamming bashes" thing. Just look at the gameplay itself.
The title is a pun on the Onyxia whelps joke, and I chose it in reference to the total amount of bashes, not anyone's in particular.

https://youtu.be/p4HpKse5lGM

[edit2]
This example fits any class, I bash after every dodge because I'd GB but the warden bashes like that. On any other character, those "counter bashes" would simply be GBs.