Why is the Nobushi considered trash at higher skill levels? (and how to overcome) | Forums

[RahnuLe]

She, like a lot of other low-tier classes in this game, needs some major improvements to her base moveset to even be viable.

Lights in general just shouldn't be parryable. Lights being parryable has contributed a ton to how passive high-level play is in general. There's simply no reason to try poking someone out when they can easily parry -> side heavy you every time.

Her stance switching needs to be instantaneous, along with every other class. Your basic defense should NOT be dependent on animations keeping up.

She needs an actual mixup. Hidden stance obviously doesn't count as all of her moves coming out of it are reactable - and furthermore, can easily be interrupted in a chain. In fact, I think lights coming out of hidden stance should straight-up have no indicator and come out too fast to react to. Why? Because she's completely immobile! When it's so trivial for someone to just back away and wait for her to come out of her stance, there really needs to be some kind of reward for using it reactively. This is doubly infuriating because assassins can just dodge -> light all day long with zero risk (unless they're idiots and dodging without provocation).

Hidden stance's deadzone needs to be fixed on controllers. Far too easy to miss the input by half a degree.

Bleed shouldn't increase damage. It makes her too predictable. You KNOW she wants to follow-up every bleed with some kind of attack so you just back away and turtle and deprive her of all her damage output. Her damage should just be high by default. Bleeds being slightly more damage than lights is enough of a perk as it is. Plus, y'know, this is something that is useless in high-level play but totally stomps all over newbies, which is just not good for the game in general. You want to narrow that gap, not widen it further.

As it is now, she is a fundamentally flawed character badly in need of major improvements to even see the light of day in high-level play. I hardly see anyone playing as her nowadays, and for good reason. She needs help.

[Peligrad]

If Nobushi had a faster guard switch she would be fine.

Her light attacks are some of the most formidable in the game. She has good mix ups and disengage and range and her kick tech is solid. She is difficult to punish when she gets parried. Her area attack is very good when in revenge as well. She also gets a free overhead heavy on GB which is quite strong.

She already has a lot of strong advantages over the less mobile characters in the game.

If she could switch he guard stance faster to keep up with the fast mobile characters she would be very good.

[PanzerShrekonin]

What are you actually talking about? No bleed does more than 1 bar worth of damage, even then it's over 6 seconds and doesn't stack. Bleed does a little more damage than a light and less than a heavy. Nobushi's are meant to be played aggressively, not defensively, hence "way of the shark". Nobushi is a low tier character and I've just about made up my mind to play mindless fotm heroes to vent my rage.

Giving the nobushi the ability to cancel her kick (to force a movement reaction) or cancel her kick into GB (to punish a side dodge) would make her viable. It wouldn't change her overall kit, but would do wonders for her. She can't vortex like a warden because kick takes up a ton of stamina to use anyway.
Giving nobushi the ability to dash into a kick with a faster startup would be great too and not break the hero.

What am I talking about?

Im talking about a character that has Range, speed((Her pokes are EXTREMELY fast. Not so much her slashes)), and really good damage on her overhead heavy. Also a bleed which is free damage((Her pokes apply this.))

Im ok with a cancel kick, but if you give her a cancel kick into guard break, she will have no counter play. She's going to turn into a much more powerful warden thanks to the range she posseses. Warden is only overpowered due to the cancel into guard break and the Zone attack. Giving the Nooboshi the same ability to cancel would probably make her even stronger than he is due to her range.

She doesn't need to vortex due to the fact that A. Hitting the kick gives you at least a bleed damage, which is free damage. or B. Cancelin into guard break would take less stamina and give a free overhead heavy.

Dash into kick? Alright thats fine.

She's isn't in need of a dire buff and calling her low tier is a joke. She is NOT low tier. Shes mid tier. If you parry her, you dont get a free guardbreak. That right there is amazing and counters the lawbringer HARD since we need the guard breka to do anything.


She's not as bad as people are making her. She has speed, range, damage, bleed... she doesn't need much else. I do agree that the kick being canceled is a good idea, but not into a guard break which gives her more wiggle room to be stronger than most.




Edit: Keep in mind, I dont play 4 v 4 all that much. I play in the duel modes, 1 v 1 and 2 v 2 where HP and gear mean very little. So another issue is balancing her for all the modes which is alot harder than you think.

[PanzerShrekonin]

If Nobushi had a faster guard switch she would be fine.

Her light attacks are some of the most formidable in the game. She has good mix ups and disengage and range and her kick tech is solid. She is difficult to punish when she gets parried. Her area attack is very good when in revenge as well. She also gets a free overhead heavy on GB which is quite strong.

She already has a lot of strong advantages over the less mobile characters in the game.

If she could switch he guard stance faster to keep up with the fast mobile characters she would be very good.

Ive noticed you can't punish her parry with a guard break. Do you get a free heavy off at least? Like with the range difference.

[PokePokeBleed]

If Nobushi had a faster guard switch she would be fine.

Her light attacks are some of the most formidable in the game. She has good mix ups and disengage and range and her kick tech is solid. She is difficult to punish when she gets parried. Her area attack is very good when in revenge as well. She also gets a free overhead heavy on GB which is quite strong.

She already has a lot of strong advantages over the less mobile characters in the game.

If she could switch he guard stance faster to keep up with the fast mobile characters she would be very good.

You haven't met a shugo who parries lights then gb into wall confirm demons. Her lights are easy to parry, and she is easily punished out of them. This is a problem going off your icon I'm gonna assume console where it may be more difficult. On PC its pretty trivial to parry her. When you play on PC and against players who will consistently punish lights and sidewinder with parry then you start to see her issues a bit more laid out.

If even using a light out of hidden mixup gets you parry punished then you see her dilemma more and more. I think this is a console vs pc issue and why we'll probally see seperate balance passes.

Look at overwatch, Widowmaker was rediculous on PC with mouse/keyboard but a total joke on console and her nerfs gutted her out competly. Reaction times on console will never be as swift as PC. I'm using this analogy specifically to highlight the issue Nobushi will have on PC, and NOT on console where players arent casually parrying every light into punishment.

Anytime I see another nobushi, I let her open, parry her light and GB heavy till she dies mostly (Playing on my own Nobushi) Yes you can GB her , even on nobu, you just have to be close enough, even point black there is plenty of time to parry her lights when you are familiar with the timings.

Which goes back to my former arguement, shes great against low/mid tier players who aren't experienced, aren't good at parrying/blocking or sidestepping her, or the kick. Its when you play against opponents who do this casually, you go oh wow, what can she do? Try hidden stance mixups? NOPE failed, Feints into light or try a gb? Nope failed..ok ok maybe a hidden into kick, NOPE they saw that coming or the faster followups pegged me before it even launched. GG out of HP why is nobu so crap.

Going on my PK to spam light with zone cancel mixup, GG parry me now. git gud KAPPA.

/endthread

[Zakmuffin]

What am I talking about?

Im talking about a character that has Range, speed((Her pokes are EXTREMELY fast. Not so much her slashes)), and really good damage on her overhead heavy. Also a bleed which is free damage((Her pokes apply this.))

Im ok with a cancel kick, but if you give her a cancel kick into guard break, she will have no counter play. She's going to turn into a much more powerful warden thanks to the range she posseses. Warden is only overpowered due to the cancel into guard break and the Zone attack. Giving the Nooboshi the same ability to cancel would probably make her even stronger than he is due to her range.

She doesn't need to vortex due to the fact that A. Hitting the kick gives you at least a bleed damage, which is free damage. or B. Cancelin into guard break would take less stamina and give a free overhead heavy.

Dash into kick? Alright thats fine.

She's isn't in need of a dire buff and calling her low tier is a joke. She is NOT low tier. Shes mid tier. If you parry her, you dont get a free guardbreak. That right there is amazing and counters the lawbringer HARD since we need the guard breka to do anything.


She's not as bad as people are making her. She has speed, range, damage, bleed... she doesn't need much else. I do agree that the kick being canceled is a good idea, but not into a guard break which gives her more wiggle room to be stronger than most.




Edit: Keep in mind, I dont play 4 v 4 all that much. I play in the duel modes, 1 v 1 and 2 v 2 where HP and gear mean very little. So another issue is balancing her for all the modes which is alot harder than you think.

Well, I figured you didn't main a nobushi. Calling her pokes extremely fast is over exaggerating. They are probably just behind assassins with the only difference being they are very predictable and slow to change up due to her slow stance speed even. The range is nice, as I've said, against spammers, but it also has more travel time, meaning you get more time to prepare to parry when you are at that maximum range. This is not good. You can parry the nobushi's max range light attacks into a heavy or ZA and her heavies with a ZA. All the classes with long range weapons cant be parried into normal GB (kensei, lawbringer, shugoki, nobushi). I'd assume you just have trouble with nobushis because there aren't a lot of people playing her in 1v1 and 2v2 because she isn't as strong as you seem to think.

I forgot to mention that like 80% of her attacks can be simply side dodged because all of her light attacks are straight forward pokes.
Also the bug after a block or parry nobushi can't ZA for damage. So she doesn't have a good counter after parrying the long range weapon classes.

[Duga1111]

Nobushi doesn't have any tools for a good initiation. Her attacks are much too slow and predictable. Any parry off her attacks guarantee a free heavy or ZA so you don't even need a GB.

The kick is fantastic vs noobs, but at high level every kick you do will be punished because it so slow an obvious. Hidden stance doesn't increase the speed of your light attacks so anything that comes out of hidden stance is parryable and therefore punishable.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5zrQq5XVI as example.

[PokePokeBleed]

Nobushi doesn't have any tools for a good initiation. Her attacks are much too slow and predictable. Any parry off her attacks guarantee a free heavy or ZA so you don't even need a GB.

The kick is fantastic vs noobs, but at high level every kick you do will be punished because it so slow an obvious. Hidden stance doesn't increase the speed of your light attacks so anything that comes out of hidden stance is parryable and therefore punishable.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5zrQq5XVI as example.

I've watched a couple of videos of him playing vs nobu and one thing I realized, its almost like he was going easy on her. Because of her recovery, most Pks/orochi/zerker will side dash attack any attack attempts since its free and you can't recover in time to block/parry. Its like he decided hey i'll be a nice guy and not lunge her to death anytime she commits.

[Zakmuffin]

I've watched a couple of videos of him playing vs nobu and one thing I realized, its almost like he was going easy on her. Because of her recovery, most Pks/orochi/zerker will side dash attack any attack attempts since its free and you can't recover in time to block/parry. Its like he decided hey i'll be a nice guy and not lunge her to death anytime she commits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHCGRhqRpGs

This is one of the best nobushi players I've seen, but it really has nothing to do with being a nobushi. This player parries and GB to victory. Handful of kick attempts, with few actually landing, a couple of hidden stances, and I don't remember seeing side winder at all. This is a rep 1 PK vs a rep 12 nobushi. True"mains" PK but he plays all the classes really and doesn't punish as much as he could and the battle is still fairly even. This nobushi would probably dominate on any of the top 4 heroes atm.

[PokePokeBleed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHCGRhqRpGs

This is one of the best nobushi players I've seen, but it really has nothing to do with being a nobushi. This player parries and GB to victory. Handful of kick attempts, with few actually landing, a couple of hidden stances, and I don't remember seeing side winder at all. This is a rep 1 PK vs a rep 12 nobushi. True"mains" PK but he plays all the classes really and doesn't punish as much as he could and the battle is still fairly even. This nobushi would probably dominate on any of the top 4 heroes atm.

Agreed, yea it was the first thing I noticed. He wasn't be a **** and abusing her slower guard change/recovery. Otherwise he would lunge frequently whenever that nobu commited. Can't block or parry it once you commit to an attack and its what every sin does to be cheesy. That first video on his warden was painful to watch how helpless she was and its what I've been saying quite often. You can roll away and burn your stamina, but any good player is right back on you like LOL have fun wasting that stam? A step in the right direction would be making rolls free for her baseline, and speeding her lights up to close to PKs, or atleast valks. Increasing her recovery frames slightly. Let us cancel kicks, and speed up sidewinder a couple frames.

The core moves she depends on to get anything done at this point, are trival to parry/avoid and punish her. Combined with slower guard changes and slow gb time she is a walking disaster. Wouldn't hurt to give her better dodge distance/speed either. Hidden stance should just be changed to an instant all guard that consumes like 20-25% stamina for every dodge, that can be GB'd of course and keep only kick out of it. Wouldn't need lights if they sped them up. Implement these changes and keep her guard the way it is I'd be happy.

Sure a nobu like that will beat your average top 4 player, but really its just player skill vs inexperienced players. He would absoluetly devastate people if he dropped nobu and played a PK.