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  1. #1

    Lawbringer Rework: Fan Idea

    (Special Note: Before we begin I'd like to point out that this idea has been in the works for a few weeks now, and what you're reading is the ideas and consensus of me and a few fellow Lawbringer mains and players who are a bit more historically knowledgeable in the use of the Poleaxe than I am. These thoughts are only based around the current patch 1.03 and are not meant to be decisive ideas based around the projected future of the game or any upcoming changes. I have no connection to Ubisoft or the developers (Even though I would totally like to talk shop with them if they were ever interested in my perspective. This is 100% a labor of love for my favorite class in the game)

    Hello fellow Warriors, and Lawbringer's alike. I've talked about it for a time now, both to those in the Hall of Heroes Discord, on stream, and as well as around the forums, Reddit, and seen other people suggest the same thing. Lawbringer could definitely use a rework. But saying that on it's own is pretty pointless without giving any real examples, feedback, or suggestions. So in this thread I will be doing just that! Even if it's only for fun, perhaps it'll help the Ubisoft Developers in their task to making this game truly amazing. But before we start, I will warn you. There is going to be a LOT of information in this post. So if you're not too keen on reading a lot, then I wouldn't suggest reading further. There will be no TL;DR as there's far too much information to cover, and it all needs context. So let's begin shall we?

    Digging into Lawbringer's Design.

    Before suggesting changes, new moves, feats, and all of that like I think I feel it's extremely important to figure out WHO and WHAT the Lawbringer is. This is to accomplish a few things. First of which is to create a cohesive theme between his character and his kit. And secondly is to accomplish what it FEELS like to become a Lawbringer. I've played every class in the game to a point where I can understand how their moves, animations, feats and design play into the feeling of what you're playing. When I play Shugoki I FEEL like a Shugoki. I get those big hits. I trade with my opponent. I go for the hug and break their back. He's very satisfying in his movements and my options. The same can be said for almost every class in the game in my opinion, but lacks more than others when it comes to the Lawbringer. For the most part I feel like a dude swinging around a stick. While it's not too far from the truth it definitely lacks more than others when it comes to what I'm accomplishing as a Lawbringer. What is he supposed to accomplish? What's his playstyle? What are his goals when he's in a fight? Asking these questions and answering them is going to be key to figuring out what we can do, and how we can make him fun to play, interesting to play against, and retain a unique identity and play-style among the other characters.

    So Who/What is the Lawbringer?

    https://youtu.be/9XqxKziXvoI - Hero Series, by Ubisoft

    https://youtu.be/s_1MbTWwujE?t=58 - Lawbringer Executions Courtesy of BigHatLogan

    So, let's start with Ubisoft's Hero Series video. It's pretty well put together and definitely works up to getting you hype to play this character. So let's pull apart two very important quotes from this video that you would think would matter in-game. The first being "Their armor has no equal. It's construction; A secret of their order". Secondly, "They carry the most versatile weapon ever invented. The Poleaxe." These two quotes are very important as they point out two aspects that you'd think would be corner stones of the character. While the Lawbringer does have a decent amount of health (Equal to that of the Warlord) and a pretty interesting kit (With a disable, a defensive move, and good options off of parries, I feel that these two points aren't driven home nearly as much as they could be.

    So, about the armor part first. Aside from Shove, he actually doesn't get Dauntless (Aka Super Armor, Uninterruptible status) on any of his attacks. His "armor" also isn't represented by any bonus health, or damage reduction. I found this very odd after a while. It wasn't readily apparent to me until I really figured out many of the flaws that the Lawbringer has. Specifically it wasn't something I had considered because I was just having fun finally playing him again. This was strange, but we'll get to it later.

    Next we talk about THE MOST VERSATILE WEAPON EVER MADE! It's almost become a meme at this point because of the epicness of the quote, and how generally useless the Lawbringer feels in most circumstances in which fundamental game-play isn't being used (aka Parries and Guardbreaks, things common and useful to EVERY class in the game). For having a "versatile" weapon like a Poleaxe we certainly don't see it being used to the best of it's capacity. It comes across more like swinging a big damage stick with some tacked on bonuses than anything else. I would assume that a versatile weapon would give you many different options or approaches either beginning a conflict, or during one, but the big LB definitely lacks in this department as well.

    Well, now that we got that out of the way, let's really focus on Who and What Lawbringer is (Sorry about the sidetrack).

    • He's Large, obviously. So that makes sense for his slow attacks and movements.

    • He's very strong. This is shown to us with his Impale execution, and Long Arm. It would take quite a lot of physical power to be able to lift people up like that.

    • He definitely enjoys being in control of the fight and his opponent. Evidenced once against by his Executions. All of them have him savoring the moment quite a lot and taking his time with his kills.


    Pretty simple. Now, based off of the order he's from, we can infer that they're obviously all about the law. Usually characters with this trope are kind of fanatical. Think Warhammer 40K Space Marine kinda guy, and that's what's gonna help drive this home for us. The theme is pretty simple, and will be used as a glue to keep it all together.

    Lastly we have his tags. These are: Counter-Attacker and Disabler. Now his Counter-Attacker status is decent. Good options off parries in the form of the Light Riposte to close distance and chip, and Blind Justice for when you wanna fully commit to some serious damage (Commitment is a key word for him I'm going to unravel when I'm discussing his changes), but other than that it's lack luster. Impaling Charge is nearly useless to use for it's stamina cost unless you know you're gonna Ledge Kill someone, and if you accidentally use it chances are your stamina bar is gonna get demolished with literally no gain for you. So it kinda makes your options very limited and your play-style with him very boring. Fishing for Parries is your best chance to deal threatening damage, and this game can't be all about standing around waiting for an opponent to attack.

    Disabler. What does it really mean in this game? Well it's usually someone who both drains your stamina bar, and throws you around a lot as far as I can tell. This is shared with Shugoki and Warlord who do that job VERY well in their own respective ways. Shogoki can knock you around like a literal ball, or grab you for his enemies to wail on. Warlord can keep you backed up with his headbutt, or throw you around with his shield like a bar-room brawl. Even Raider can keep that up with his Stunning Tap, or just whisk you away to the Wonder Ledge so you can fall down the rabbit hole. Sadly enough, Lawbringer's "Disables" are very 1-dimensional and not nearly as effective as any other disabler's tools, aside from the free stuns he gets if he lands a Top Heavy. So we'll have to take a look at that as well and see if we can't bring some flavor to his disabling potential to make him fun for the player, and interesting enough to fight against.

    What are the Lawbringer's Problems?

    Right now Lawbringer suffers from almost TOO MUCH diversity with his kit. He's got long chains. He's got quite a few unblockables. He's got parry attacks. He's got a push he can use off of a block even! But where the real problem lies in all of this, is that it doesn't work together for him. In fact it's a good thing that it doesn't. Imagine getting anything guaranteed after a Shove. Or heavies off of long arm. Every buff that would ever get put on him would start to push him from being "decent at best" to a total god, and if not, just as bad if not worse than Conq currently is.

    In my mind, and with little proof to back this up, I feel that his kit used to work together and it was so overwhelming to play against that he had to be toned down. Unfortunately, because of the kit he has it would almost be impossible to buff him without the aforementioned issue of him becoming Godlike.

    All in all, he's not focused enough. And in my mind his kit doesn't really fit with the themes we discussed earlier. He looks strong, but doesn't do much for damage. His "control" in a fight is often overshadowed by other character's, or limited to Long Arm spam in team fights. And finally he doesn't really act like he's exerting his will over you with the Law on his side.

    Of course these are all superficial problems at best. He definitely has a hard time landing any meaningful damage on his enemy without Guard Breaks and Wall Stuns, his attacks are mostly parry bait, his feint game is pretty terrible and predictable, and as said before nothing in his kit really works to pushing him towards an advantage in a fight in which he isn't ganging up on someone. So we need to keep his Team-play intact while also bumping up his 1v1 abilities and not making him so boring with half a kit that doesn't work. A pretty tough job, but I think we can handle it.

    First Step: Hammering Home the Long Arm of the Law.

    This is going to be the first ability I'm going to change. The reason is simple. It sucks, and it's boring. It's not particularly inventive, doesn't do any damage aside from a free light attack (whoopee) and isn't really all that threatening to an enemy because of how slow it's wind-up is. It's like having Shugoki's hug, except easier to dodge and doesn't actually DO anything to speed the fight in one direction or the other. I'm not getting rid of it entirely, of course. It's a pretty signature move, but we can make it better! So what do we change?

    Long Arm: The Lawbringer reaches out with his Poleaxe, hooking an enemy and pulling towards him, grabbing them by the throat when they arrive and choke slamming them to the ground. - Unblockable. Frontal Hitbox. Same wind-up time as original Long Arm. Stamina Cost 35%. 20% penalty if whiffed. 40 Damage. Can be connected with on Wall Stun. Long recovery if whiffed.

    "Dreegan, sounds like you gave LB a Goki Hug." That I did sir, that I did. But why, you might ask? Well there's nothing wrong with having two of one attack. And I feel it suits the Lawbringer just as well. Big guy with a lot of strength. It also fits the "Long Arm" theme to a T. More importantly it still allows him to peel for his allies while also keeping an opponent locked down for enough time for them to do damage if the Lawbringer is supporting. But MOST importantly, it's an ability that the Lawbringer can actually use to be a THREAT against someone in a 1v1 Scenario. It's not an attack you want to get hit by as that's a pretty decent chunk of health to lose. But the good thing is that it does have a high stamina cost (Comes with being a big guy swinging around a big weapon), the same wind-up time (So it can't be used whenever he wants) and it lacks hyper armor. It's a pretty good trade-off for having a really good tool to deal damage, help your allies, and look like a badass while doing it.

    Second Step: Make Way for Make Way.

    So here's a tricky move. First off, it doesn't work at all in game right now. So let's put that upfront on the table. But, what if it DID WORK!? Well then you'd have a faster zone attack off of a parry with nothing really special or unique about it. However! I believe I can use this move to really drive home the versatility of the Poleaxe in a few ways. And we're going to do that by making this move work in a different way, and also be chargeable.

    Make Way (Uncharged): After a parry, using a Zone Attack causes the Lawbringer to flip his poleaxe around to the back, dragging it in front of him in 180 degrees, tripping enemies in front of him. Stamina Cost: Undecided.

    Why this? Well, I feel that it would be a good opportunity to get some breathing room for a Lawbringer who's already slow as **** and give him some space to properly assess the situation for a brief moment, or get off a free attack (Undecided if light or heavy, but probably Light, just to be fair.) But don't worry, we have a second part to it!

    Make Way (Charged): After a parry, holding down the Zone Attack command causes the Lawbringer to use the current Make Way attack animation for an unblockable 360 Attack that knocks enemies back a bit. Damage: 25. Stamina Cost: Undecided.

    When things get a bit hairy, it's time to go full tilt and pull some Lu Bu out of your hat. This is another option for Lawbringer to choose if things are getting a bit dicey or he needs to... well, Make Way. While it might seem a bit overloaded at first to have both of these on his kit at the same time (I'd personally take the Unblockable over the Sweep, but it's personal preference), I feel that there's no real harm in it.

    Third Step: Impaling Charge.

    This one's not so tricky to work with as the move works. However, it's absolute garbage. It's stamina cost for being blockable and parryable mixed with what it does (It's basically just a worse Raider Charge), and damage make this attack just... horrifically bad. So what could we possibly do to this to make it better? Well, a few things. Firstly we can make this move actually do something that actually justifies it's stamina cost. And secondly, we can make it a bit more unique to the Lawbringer besides being about just pushing someone a long distance. I feel that something like that belongs more towards Vikings between Raider and Warlord. They're more brawlers anyway, and not as Knightly as I prefer the Lawbringer to be. This will also give a reason to use it as well as Long Arm more as I'll explain later. So, here's what I got.

    Impaling Charge: The Lawbringer charges and impales his enemy on the end of his poleaxe, moving forward a bit. If he doesn't collide with a wall, he'll slam the enemy down into the ground, dealing another hit of damage. Upon hitting a wall, he deals damage as well as stunning the enemy with a follow up shoulder bash. Hitting an environmental hazard/ledge has him just plunge them into it, dealing whatever happens. Stamina Cost: Same as in-game, including all the penalties for whiffing, blocking, and parrying the charge. Damage Initial: Same as in-game. Damage on Finish: 30. Damage on Wall Finish: 30.

    So, why this? What we're aiming here for is to drive home more of his "Disabling" nature by giving him some lock down as well as just making the move more powerful in general. I didn't want to change the stamina cost, because I honestly enjoy the high stamina cost for big effects playstyle, and I think he definitely needs to fit that theme. Just wanting to bring it up to it's current costs.

    Fourth Step: Shoving out Shove.

    This ability is probably one of the more interesting moves in Lawbringer's kit. It's interesting because it's too strong to be good. It's a mixed bag. It's an unblockable with Super Armor, and functions almost similar to Headbutt, Shield Bash, and Shoulder Tackle. It can be used after a Dodge, a connected Heavy attack, AND a BLOCK of all things. But it has one distinct flaw. It doesn't guarantee any kind of damage or effect. As well it shouldn't, because if it did (Especially being able to be used after a Block) it would instantly turn Lawbringer into the most unfun characters to play against. And that's one distinct flavor we're trying desperately to avoid with this rework. Every change I've made up to this point has been done in order to give the Lawbringer some new, viable ways to get damage in and control his opponent, while still being fair to go against. But Shove? I've pondered what to do with this move for so long, and since I don't believe in making a move too strong, or having anything useless in someone's kit; It has to go. I'm going to replace it with a move that, once again fits the theme of Disabler, as well as utilize the weapon he has equipped. I hope you like it.

    Pull: Initiated by hitting Guard Break after landing a heavy attack, the Lawbringer quickly hooks his poleaxe into his opponent, dragging them in the direction his swing was going when it hit. (Top heavies drag the opponent behind the Lawbringer). This ability continues, but will not reset your chain. This ability causes Wall-Stun if you drag the opponent into a wall. Damage: None. Stamina Cost: Current Shove Cost.

    "BUT MUH SHOVE!" Well, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but in all honesty I could not for the life of me figure out how to make shove work without causing problems in 1) Making him rely on it as a "Vortex" combo like Warden does by being able to cancel it 2) Making an ability good to be used off of a simple block and 3) Keeping such a passive ability on someone who has better tools to be made and used to hurt his opponent.

    Fifth Step: Giving Lawbringer some Useful Passives.

    Passive's are important in this game, and actually quite fun. It allows characters to have a threat against other players from the get-go before they actually do anything. And it really helps tune their kit in the right direction by having nuances about their kit help the kit not be as useless as you would think. Imagine if Warlord didn't have Hyper Armor on their heavies. Or Nobushi didn't deal additional damage to bleeding targets. It's basically the glue for the kit to stick together and become truly unique, or usable based on the situation. So, now that we have the kit basically worked out, let's put some glue on it to really finish it off.

    Righteousness: Successfully landing Impaling Charge or Long Arm grants the Lawbringer a charge of Hyper Armor.

    Hyper Armor!? That's right, it's pretty important for slow characters especially like him to be able to have options to go on the offensive. And while I don't want him to always have it, or have it just regenerate on it's own, I'd like to be able to reward the Lawbringer for landing his high risk attacks with the ability to temporarily go on the offensive as well. It'll definitely help bring him out of his current playstyle which is just fishing for Guard Breaks all the time, and allow him to play with his moves a bit more.

    Reverential Pursuit: Lawbringer deals additional damage to enemies who are out of the stamina.

    This is an extra thing to try to hammer home the feeling that you are a Lawbringer, and your sole devotion is to punish those who go against you. Of course I'm aware that there's not too use against people who are out of the stamina as defense is really strong in this game, and of course, this IS just a suggestion, but I really just love the idea of it entirely.

    Sixth Step: Feats for the Lawbringer to stand on.

    This is a bit harder, as thinking up feats isn't the easiest thing for me to do as I don't exactly know how the power budgeting in this game works, but I did think of a few in no particular placement of what Tier they'd go into. So I'll just list what I got and you guys can decide on your own where they belong.

    Fervor: The Lawbringer's attack speed increases as his life is depleted (Max 15% at critical)

    Justice: Long Arm and Impaling Charge do more damage, but cost more stamina.

    Order's Secret: Increases the Lawbringer's max health.

    Unfortunately those are the only interesting and unique feats I could think of that would go along with the Lawbringer. I need to do some more research into the lore of the game to figure out any interesting activatable feats or any other technology they might possess to be able to use on the battlefield.

    Seventh Step: The Conclusion

    So, while I don't pretend to be the best designer or anything of the sort, I do hope you guys enjoyed the rework ideas I had for the Lawbringer. To reiterate; These changes are meant to improve his 1v1, while still retaining his threat in teamfights without having to rely on cheesey tactics (Long Arm flip chains). I played off of the idea of a big guy with heavy stamina costs, but heavy rewards, and wanted to make him more Heavy than Vanguard, even though he shares both tags.

    I kept an idea of balance in mind. His big attacks are big attacks, and I don't want him to become overly oppressive, so I kept that in mind while thinking up each new attack and mechanic for him to be able to use. The real key to this guy, however, is making the fantasy of being a Lawbringer come truly alive. Every character has this "feel" to them and that's something that was more important to me than really anything else. Balance changes can come with number tweaks and changes, but if the base kit isn't that great, well we get what we got right now.

    Hopefully that wasn't too rough for you guys to read, and I hope you at least enjoyed the thought of it. Here's to hoping Ubisoft definitely fixes up our Law Man, and if you guys have any questions about the rework feel free to comment below and I'll do my best to help explain anything that I might not have went over as well as I should have.

    Good luck in the fields, warriors.

    P.S: If there's something in here that I forgot to go over, or didn't go over well enough, please let me know in the comments and I'll expound on it more. I was writing this in pieces for a good long time and had some other people proof-read it just in case, but I'm not perfect.
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  2. #2
    I was very interested in this premise until you likened your ideal Lawbringer to a Space Marine... boring, bland, turned off immediately. My frothing hate for Space Marines aside I feel like I am going to be one of the few players who main the Lawbringer out there who suggest that it most certainly does NOT need any major changes to be/remain reasonably effective.

    For the record it is not my intent to see the Lawbringer move to S tier in the slightest... upper B or A would seems fair and balanced to me.

    I have to address you points in order, at least to present my own perspective on the matter, and hopefully with target your own concerns about the class. To begin I feel the Lawbringer is a class that can control the tempo of a fight and that in no uncertain terms does it ever need any statistical buff in the form of hit points, damage, or stamina increases.

    1.) The Long Arm is a fine throw and doesn't need to do damage to fit into the Lawbringers role effectively.

    I feel like the alterations to the technique you suggest are somewhat out of character, at least where it concerns my interpretation of the classes strengths, and would hurt the class more than help it. I've never felt like the Lawbringer was designed to be a heavy hitting class and so adding damage, in place of the guaranteed light attack after a successful throw, especially a grab that deals 40 damage would skew the class towards 'Heavy Hitter' status. My personal thoughts on Long Arm are that it satisfies the criteria of 'disabling' and 'controlling' by forcing a relatively long animation on your opponent, forcing the pace of the fight to a crawl, and allowing you to completely re-position. Moreover I adore the animation as a representation of the class, being unrelenting and driven.

    The follow up light attack is not altogether a potent damage dealer but it suffices to punish a foe for being caught by it, and the damage isn't really something to sniff at. I've won a fair few fights by connecting the Long Arm into a light attack. Not particularly glorious sans Execution.

    2.) Make Way... is actually a damn good zone attack.

    For clearing waves of enemies in Dominion. While it is less useful outside of that and no where near on part with the zone attacks of the Warden or Orochi it fulfills what I would suggest the intended role for that attack is.

    3.) Impaling Charge... predictable but not completely useless.

    I do hear your thoughts on the massive stamina penalty you get hit with when this pushing attack inevitably fails, can't argue with that. That said I don't find it to be a useless move at all. On the off chance your push is successful you have an incredibly powerful tool at your hands for environmental kills, which I am sure many players have agonisingly encountered before. I tend to use it instead as a feint into several other techniques. a.) I can actually commit to the push b.) I can fake a push into a Guard Break (simple stuff) c.) I can fake both of the above into an overhead feint and potentially bait out a parry.

    Each of those three options have pros and cons and they won't work all the time but they are options that CAN work for you.

    4.) I'm a Shove Fan... what can I say?

    While I can agree that the Lawbringer can become dependent on it's Vortex in certain situations I see the utility in it as another move that stops the flow of the fight. What I love about the Shove is that it counts as the first attack in any one of your combos short cutting your button presses and allowing you to reverse the flow of the fight. Yes it can lead you into a parry... what can't when the player base is really getting used to the timings of all of the classes? What it does lead into as I am sure you know is...

    Blind Justice Feint = Shove -> Heavy Attack - Unblockable Heavy Attack / Canceled and Feinted into your parry -> Your choice of Vortex Initiator, etc, etc

    Again, it will not work for every player, I just tend to find it works for me at my level as I get better and better.

    5.) I don't really know what to say about passives... never really considered them.

    Not going to lie... Righteousness sounds pretty badass so long as you cannot stack multiple charges of Hyper Armour. Reverential Pursuit (pretty cool name could also be 'Dogged Pursuit') seems to be a little over powered to me since draining the enemy of stamina should be your end goal and you can already inflict terrible damage on fallen opponents after a parry or throw when they have run out of stamina.

    6.) Again, interesting stuff.

    In terms of the feats you suggested I like the concept of Order's Secret though would suggest perhaps it improve the Defence value of the Lawbringer by a small amount... though I feel like they already have that Conqueror Defensive Stance Feat available to them. Fervor seems potentially interesting but somewhat tacky to allow slight changes in parry timing as the fight goes on essentially punishing a player performing well against a Lawbringer for being the better player. Justice also has the same gripe though for me it is more to do with the change in Stamina cost for certain moves... I might just be nit picking on that one though.

    I hope you find something interesting in my reply to engage with... I'm not attacking you or the ideas just wanting to discuss them. You might convince me to change my mind.

    Suggestions?

    As for my suggestion, and this might already something incorporated into the game, I would like to see a move that stems from an effective use of the Feint mechanic and punish a player who Feints themselves expecting you to respond. Something like the move observed after using a Heavy Attack and then employing the Light Attack to the opposite side in Book, Chapter, and Verse.

    A rapid rotation that uses the spike of the Poleaxe to strike at the opposite side of the Feint. This move could only be employed from the Left of Right Stances and the Light Attack part of the chain would always be on the opposite side of the Feint. By successfully landing the Light Attack section of this move it would count the first two sections of Book, Chapter, and Verse as completed allowing you that slightly more rapid Heavy Attack as your punish. The opponent can of course block this Light Attack and end the chain before it begins but it is an option available for Lawbringers.

    E.g- Heavy Attack (Right) / Cancelled into Feint -> Light Attack (Left Side) -> Heavy Attack (Any Direction)

    Perhaps I am being to basic here and other people might suggest a different set of options here like a guaranteed Long Arm after the Light Attack section or something similar.
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  3. #3
    Just going to point this out in response to your comment Cadian but..Make Way does not work whatsoever. It is currently bugged in the game and I cannot count how many times I have attempted to use it and it has not once come out. Either a light attack follow up occurs or just a regular attack. Also Make Way is useless in its ability to clear "waves of enemies in Dominion" as you put it because it is only usable after a successful parry against an enemy Hero. If instead you are referring to the default Zone Attack instead then it is indeed useful for clearing out waves of enemy minions.

    Also Blind Justice is UNFEINTABLE. It is a move that the Lawbringer has to fully commit to and can only be done successfully off of Parrying a Light Attack. You try it off of a Heavy parry then the enemy will have time to dodge the strike or even successfully parry said attack.

    Impaling Charge is also an extremely high risk move and relatively useless IF the enemy does not see you coming. Even then, if they're paying attention they'll just block you and your out of stamina. In regards to your comment on being able to "fake a push into a Guard Break" it is just absurd. Impaling Charge is another unfeintable or in this case Unfakeable strike. It is just another move where you must fully commit after initiate the charge. All a person has to do to effectively counter a charging Lawbringer is simple, Guard Left or even Parry Left before the strike hits and they will get a guaranteed GB off on your Out Of Stamina Lawbringer.

    In regards to Long Arm...it is a fairly telegraphed attack that leaves the Lawbringer open to an extremely easy punish. All the opponent has to do is dodge either to the side or back and they will avoid it, allowing them to easily follow up on your whiff with a Light attack. All the follow up Light Attack is, is a little Bonk on the head more or less, doesn't do overall that much damage for the risk that you had to take to land the Long Arm. The only time that the current build of the Long Arm is truly useful is to use it against a Revenging Foe in a 3v1 onward situation and in that case, the Shugoki's Hug is a far better disable since it, 1. Deals Damage, 2. Disables them for an even longer period of time, and 3. heals the Shugoki.
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  4. #4
    1.) The Long Arm is a fine throw and doesn't need to do damage to fit into the Lawbringers role effectively.

    I feel like the alterations to the technique you suggest are somewhat out of character, at least where it concerns my interpretation of the classes strengths, and would hurt the class more than help it. I've never felt like the Lawbringer was designed to be a heavy hitting class and so adding damage, in place of the guaranteed light attack after a successful throw, especially a grab that deals 40 damage would skew the class towards 'Heavy Hitter' status. My personal thoughts on Long Arm are that it satisfies the criteria of 'disabling' and 'controlling' by forcing a relatively long animation on your opponent, forcing the pace of the fight to a crawl, and allowing you to completely re-position. Moreover I adore the animation as a representation of the class, being unrelenting and driven.

    The follow up light attack is not altogether a potent damage dealer but it suffices to punish a foe for being caught by it, and the damage isn't really something to sniff at. I've won a fair few fights by connecting the Long Arm into a light attack. Not particularly glorious sans Execution.
    I will say myself, that I too have won fights off of getting a Long Arm into a free Light attack. Mostly when I've cornered an opponent to my fortune and managed to get them with it without them just dodging out of it. But, that doesn't really help it's case in the long run for me. While I still believe the new animation does it's job in animation locking the opponent I feel the damage was a necessary addition as in this new version Long Arm can't be spammed on people over and over again. Because as of right now, flipping someone over your shoulder 3+ times doesn't really put in mind a good fantasy for the character as much as it just makes the move rather silly. And it is also just my opinion, but a simple light after landing such a risky attack isn't a very satisfying reward as it should be reward enough just landing the attack.

    Plus, with the addition of him now getting a charge of Hyper Armor (That's unstacklable, I forgot to mention that and will edit it). Landing this risky move rewards you immediately, while also allowing a character an opening to actually go on the offensive for once, and adds another dimension to his play.

    2.) Make Way... is actually a damn good zone attack.

    For clearing waves of enemies in Dominion. While it is less useful outside of that and no where near on part with the zone attacks of the Warden or Orochi it fulfills what I would suggest the intended role for that attack is.
    Make Way does not work. During various tests under various triggers me and my fellow LB mains have gotten it to trigger a total of once. And this was done by Handheldbrando himself, funnily enough. The result? Simply a faster zone attack. AKA an actually useful zone attack besides his vanilla one as you see it now. THAT'S the one that used to clear minions in Dominion. Not Make Way.

    Once again the idea behind the new Make Way, while I wouldn't actually expect both of them to be implemented, although I thought the option was a good idea, is to add a bit more use to using a Zone Attack after a parry, instead of just being like Warden, Orochi, or PK and using it willy nilly in 1v1 scenarios.

    3.) Impaling Charge... predictable but not completely useless.

    I do hear your thoughts on the massive stamina penalty you get hit with when this pushing attack inevitably fails, can't argue with that. That said I don't find it to be a useless move at all. On the off chance your push is successful you have an incredibly powerful tool at your hands for environmental kills, which I am sure many players have agonisingly encountered before. I tend to use it instead as a feint into several other techniques. a.) I can actually commit to the push b.) I can fake a push into a Guard Break (simple stuff) c.) I can fake both of the above into an overhead feint and potentially bait out a parry.

    Each of those three options have pros and cons and they won't work all the time but they are options that CAN work for you.
    Impaling Charge is a 100% totally committed attack. Once you hit that button, you're all in on a very slow move that even when it HITS drains your stamina like crazy. For a move that's blockable, that's pretty unheard of, and I don't agree with it at all. However, instead of making it unblockable and basically making it Raider 2.0, I opted for (once again) giving it it's own unique spin. You see, I think you and me disagree on a fundamental concept of the Lawbringer. I see him as a hulking wall of Iron. And if a wall falls on you, it should be a very real health risk. Sure, I can get ledge/evironment kills with it, if I'm lucky. But if I don't, I'm taking a huge stamina hit for very little gain even if I manage to run my enemy into a wall. So if a big, slow, heavily clad guy weilding a very dangerous and powerful weapon goes in on you like that, it should definitely leave more than just a bruise.

    4.) I'm a Shove Fan... what can I say?

    While I can agree that the Lawbringer can become dependent on it's Vortex in certain situations I see the utility in it as another move that stops the flow of the fight. What I love about the Shove is that it counts as the first attack in any one of your combos short cutting your button presses and allowing you to reverse the flow of the fight. Yes it can lead you into a parry... what can't when the player base is really getting used to the timings of all of the classes? What it does lead into as I am sure you know is...

    Blind Justice Feint = Shove -> Heavy Attack - Unblockable Heavy Attack / Canceled and Feinted into your parry -> Your choice of Vortex Initiator, etc, etc
    I'd like to stop and correct you first. You can't Feint Blind Justice. It's a 100% committed attack. I'm not sure where you came up with that, but hopefully now you know.

    Shove was a hard thing for me to decide on. I'm also a fan of it, I truly am. And I love how it cuts my combos down. Trust me, I'm not a newb at this game. However, Shove nearly feels mandatory for me to use 100% of the time unless I can't risk spending the stamina for it in the instant I decide to use it. Also the move has 3 triggers, one of which is off of a block. So it can't guarantee anything. And the thing with a Vortex in this game as you decided to drop the term, is that you're guaranteed something if the opponent guesses wrong. Shove is not a Vortex starter, as everything afterwards is totally reactable without having to guess. The whole point of a Vortex move is that the move itself is a 50/50 guess on your opponents park. Because shove can't be canceled into a GB or anything of the sort, it doesn't fall under this terminology. Here's the cases for it. 1) Hit by Shove? Reset to neutral, nobody has the advantage. 2) Don't hit Shove. You're at a disadvantage to whatever the enemy wants to do to you (Usually a guardbreak for a free attack or kill).

    Lastly, as stated before, I'm not interested in making the Lawbringer play like every other character. I'm much more invested in making his playstyle stand out as unique, as I believe that all characters should if their kit is created poorly. And while I won't use this thread in particular to point out the various flaws in kits amongst characters, I do feel it is imperative to make each class as distinct from each other as possible while still revolving around the game's fundamental mechanics.

    [QUOTE]5.) I don't really know what to say about passives... never really considered them.

    Not going to lie... Righteousness sounds pretty badass so long as you cannot stack multiple charges of Hyper Armour. Reverential Pursuit (pretty cool name could also be 'Dogged Pursuit') seems to be a little over powered to me since draining the enemy of stamina should be your end goal and you can already inflict terrible damage on fallen opponents after a parry or throw when they have run out of stamina.[/QUOTE[

    Righteousness is a good idea, and no you cannot stack the Hyper Armor. Pursuit I thought was a great idea as it's a good trade off considering that as a Lawbringer you're going to be burning your stamina just as much as they are trying to get them down. Now, every character can inflict REALLY good damage on someone who gets thrown to the ground (Nobushi in particular is very scary, as well as Berserker and Valk) but remember, this change is based on what is happening now. And right now when you're out of stamina you're still more or less safe so long as you can Counter Guard Break someone. Otherwise you don't have a risk of falling down and taking that extra damage. This passive allows standing opponents to fear getting hit by the Lawbringer just as much. It might be the only OP idea I've had for him, but I think it fits thematically.

    6.) Again, interesting stuff.

    In terms of the feats you suggested I like the concept of Order's Secret though would suggest perhaps it improve the Defence value of the Lawbringer by a small amount... though I feel like they already have that Conqueror Defensive Stance Feat available to them. Fervor seems potentially interesting but somewhat tacky to allow slight changes in parry timing as the fight goes on essentially punishing a player performing well against a Lawbringer for being the better player. Justice also has the same gripe though for me it is more to do with the change in Stamina cost for certain moves... I might just be nit picking on that one though.

    I hope you find something interesting in my reply to engage with... I'm not attacking you or the ideas just wanting to discuss them. You might convince me to change my mind.
    You're not wrong to nit-pick on these, as they were thrown in at the last minute. Some are strong, some are weak, some are stupid. They weren't my major concern with his rework. Fervor was the most interesting to me. Someone who knows he's dying and needs to fight just even harder, fanatically so to uphold the Law. But in that same vein it could make the player themselves play more sloppily.

    Also not sure what you're talking about regarding a Conqueror's Defensive Stance Feat. I assume you mean Juggernaut? You'll have to clarify for me.

    Suggestions?

    As for my suggestion, and this might already something incorporated into the game, I would like to see a move that stems from an effective use of the Feint mechanic and punish a player who Feints themselves expecting you to respond. Something like the move observed after using a Heavy Attack and then employing the Light Attack to the opposite side in Book, Chapter, and Verse.

    A rapid rotation that uses the spike of the Poleaxe to strike at the opposite side of the Feint. This move could only be employed from the Left of Right Stances and the Light Attack part of the chain would always be on the opposite side of the Feint. By successfully landing the Light Attack section of this move it would count the first two sections of Book, Chapter, and Verse as completed allowing you that slightly more rapid Heavy Attack as your punish. The opponent can of course block this Light Attack and end the chain before it begins but it is an option available for Lawbringers.

    E.g- Heavy Attack (Right) / Cancelled into Feint -> Light Attack (Left Side) -> Heavy Attack (Any Direction)

    Perhaps I am being to basic here and other people might suggest a different set of options here like a guaranteed Long Arm after the Light Attack section or something similar.
    An interesting suggestion here. And Lawbringer does this somewhat while it in Top stance, by feinting a heavy into a light. It's actually one of my go-tos to defend myself against parrying assassin's which are rare, but there. And also helps me chip Warlords. Having the feint itself count towards your chain, however, is a very interesting concept. While I truly like this idea, I'm not sure if it should be exclusive to just one class, as I think all classes could benefit from this change.
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  5. #5
    I really, REALLY like some of these ideas of yours. There's a ton of changes in here, and maybe not all of them would be necessary, but I think your version of Lawbringer is a bit more cohesive than the current one. The issue, however, comes in when you take into account the current state of the game, where parries and guard breaks win fights.

    I like your proposed changes to his Long Arm, since currently it's practically worthless for anything besides being a cheeky parlor trick in a 1v1 or a nuisance in a 1vX situation. It needs to do some kind of damage and him being this hulking tower of metal (as well as the fact that he yells with half of his attacks, really adding in the whole fanatical executioner theme) he could definitely use that devotion to his cause to go for the attack you mentioned.

    Shove is overused and pointless in most situations besides the vortex. As much as I like it, it needs to go or just be more useful, but less used. The Impaling Charge could be useful since it deals damage, and honestly I feel that it either needs that damage, or to cost significantly less stamina. However, your version fits his disabler tag much better.

    I liked your passive ideas. A charge of hyper armor not only gives him options for offense, but gives opponents a way of knowing when a lawbringer wants to go offensive because of his hyper armor and can bait parries knowing they'll go for heavy attacks or big damage without being interrupted. It's a very good system that would be UNIQUE to him, and I think he needs something that's his own.

    In general, your ideas are great. Hope this gets seen at least and brought up as ideas to the devs for some fixing.
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  6. #6
    I didn't have the move set in front of me. I was thinking of Judge, Jury, Executioner, otherwise the three hit chain that ends with the Unblockable. Much like that I don't have the terminology down for the Make Way move so my apologies.

    As for the damage and hyper armour stacking I just simply do not agree on either account as 40 damage is rather too much for a single throw (the Shugoki back breaker is already a massive pain in the *** at tacky if it ever lands while they have low hit points) more to the point earning stacks of hyper armour that, I assume last indefinitely, and that build up over repeated use of this throw would make spamming it, or at least repeating in gank situations, unbearable.

    The attack can deal 40 damage and gives hyper armour. Use it again with hyper armour. It effectively cannot be stopped and you gain more hyper armour. Use it again and you gain even more hyper armour and deal 40 damage. All the while one would assume your allies are trashing the enemy who cannot block.

    When it comes to character design I suppose we do. I like to envision him as a fortress wall... but a fortress wall does not of its own accord hit back at those who would surmount it. It wears them down, exhausts them, whittles down numbers in a battle of attrition. So where you place value on strength I place value on endurance and staying power.

    Maybe one of those changes could benefit the Lawbringer but more than one at a time would transition the Lawbringer from defensive counter-attacker into a heavy hitter.
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by TheCadian_ Go to original post
    I didn't have the move set in front of me. I was thinking of Judge, Jury, Executioner, otherwise the three hit chain that ends with the Unblockable. Much like that I don't have the terminology down for the Make Way move so my apologies.

    As for the damage and hyper armour stacking I just simply do not agree on either account as 40 damage is rather too much for a single throw (the Shugoki back breaker is already a massive pain in the *** at tacky if it ever lands while they have low hit points) more to the point earning stacks of hyper armour that, I assume last indefinitely, and that build up over repeated use of this throw would make spamming it, or at least repeating in gank situations, unbearable.

    The attack can deal 40 damage and gives hyper armour. Use it again with hyper armour. It effectively cannot be stopped and you gain more hyper armour. Use it again and you gain even more hyper armour and deal 40 damage. All the while one would assume your allies are trashing the enemy who cannot block.

    When it comes to character design I suppose we do. I like to envision him as a fortress wall... but a fortress wall does not of its own accord hit back at those who would surmount it. It wears them down, exhausts them, whittles down numbers in a battle of attrition. So where you place value on strength I place value on endurance and staying power.

    Maybe one of those changes could benefit the Lawbringer but more than one at a time would transition the Lawbringer from defensive counter-attacker into a heavy hitter.
    I thought I told you before in my previous post the Hyper Armor does not stack, but it will last until used. And it wouldn't honestly wouldn't be all that different than any other unblockable spam that currently happens in 1vMore situations as this version of Long Arm is still based around pulling opponents away from others and TO the Lawbringer.

    You could, in theory, just spam the move, but after the 2nd use, or even a miss you run the risk of gassing yourself out (also please note that Guard Breaks do break Hyper Armor as well).

    As to your vision, I get that, I really do. However, we already have two walls of defense being Warlord and to a more even defensive point, Conqueror who is a literal walking fortress both in duels and in Dominion (Where he can actually heal on block).

    Lastly, I see no reason why Lawbringer can't deal some damage as well. I mean, just for fun, you can see that Conqueror is considered a Heavy-Hitter, but that's only on one attack that needs to be charged in order to hit heavily. I use the tags as a basis, not a limitation.

    Now, to maybe one of the changes going to him rather than all of them at a once? Perhaps. However I specifically put all of this together in mind to work with each other. He has too many useless one-off moves for my taste and they're currently like that because he was heavily nerfed before we got a chance to play him.
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  8. #8
    I'm not sure which way I lean on such an overhaul, but at least with how things currently are I think one small change would be a nice QoL improvement for Lawbringers; guaranteed lights off of Shove *if, and only if* it is a Shove performed off of a dodge. If it accompanies a heavy attack or block, then it functions as it does now. Perhaps it isn't the best idea, but it seems like a simple solution to the Shove problem that shouldn't be too powerful.
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  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Felis_Menari Go to original post
    I'm not sure which way I lean on such an overhaul, but at least with how things currently are I think one small change would be a nice QoL improvement for Lawbringers; guaranteed lights off of Shove *if, and only if* it is a Shove performed off of a dodge. If it accompanies a heavy attack or block, then it functions as it does now. Perhaps it isn't the best idea, but it seems like a simple solution to the Shove problem that shouldn't be too powerful.
    This is more or less where I stand. Small changes for quality of life things over big, sweeping changes... It may seem a logical fallacy, and it is one, to think of separate games and game balancing but considering those experiences in which major changes to multiple things at once, rather than slow progressive changes, have lead to other nasty imbalances really puts me at odds with complete overhauls.
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  10. #10
    Originally Posted by TheCadian_ Go to original post
    This is more or less where I stand. Small changes for quality of life things over big, sweeping changes... It may seem a logical fallacy, and it is one, to think of separate games and game balancing but considering those experiences in which major changes to multiple things at once, rather than slow progressive changes, have lead to other nasty imbalances really puts me at odds with complete overhauls.
    I'm not a fan of massive overhauls either. But, I do like a couple of Dreagan's ideas. I definitely dig the proposed Long Arm changes (though I'd prefer the current animation mostly remain intact with the over the shoulder action, but with the enemy getting spiked into the ground instead; this way, the ring-out potential remains intact). As for Impaling Charge, it sounds cool, but it seems like it may be too much. It's easy to block, but to hit with it (and deal almost a bar of health) and then get a guaranteed heavy off of a wall stun? That would be massive damage that would be a little too easy to dish out, perhaps. As is though, Impaling Charge does seem to do too little for the risk (and stamina consumption) involved.
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