Community gameplay balance suggestions | Forums

[Mr_Gallows]

I was thinking that it may be a good idea to have a thread where we can put a big of weight behind our goal - to improve the game.

I have had several discussions with people on here about my own and other peoples suggestions. Even if I don't agree with everything I have read I do appreciate the passion of people, because this game could be the most awesome game we have ever played. And the game isn't that bad. There are some issues, but they can be fixed. The framework of the game is brilliant.

So instead of having many different threads spread out on the forums with us sort of arguing among ourselves about which solution is best - it may be more productive and helpful if we try to work toward a common goal. Comming up with solutions that may allow the game to reach the potential it had.

To be honest I don't care if it's my solution or someone elses. The only thing I care about is making the game fun so we can all kill each other with a big fat smile.

I have read many well thought out solutions and even ones I do not agree with, could have potential if they were tweaked. There are a lot of experienced people here who already know the game very well and have an idea about problems at both lower level of play and the higher level of play - and both must work.

I'm not going to present my idea here, because I already did that in a different thread, but I invite everyone to post their ideas for improving gameplay.

When you read an idea in this thread it will be helpful not to just comment on an idea not working. Try looking at an idea, run with it and see if you can tweak it or modify it so that it is better in your opinion. That would allow us to eventually come up with something that could be the gold nugget of wisdom that could actually help the developers. With that in mind, ideas that completely alter the game or change it significantly most likely won't work.

From the threads I have read and the discussions I have had, I know many of you are both passionate about the game and quite bright people with the capacity to make this work.

With that said, let's work together, and help each other make ideas presented here better than each of us can do on our own.

___________________________________

Just posting the idea I have arrived at after sevelral threads on here:

Attacking is risky mainly because of what parry gives the defender and defending is safe because it is risk free and offers great reward.

If parry was reworked in the following way, parry would still be good, but not offer free damage and not make attacking so risky.

Parry
First there are some changes and effects for the person being parried (attacker)
1. No stagger after parry, so the person being parried can defend himself from attacks and GB
2. After being parried you cannot dodge backwards or you will fall down.
3. Stamina drain like now
4. attacking and GB disabled for a moment after being parried, so the only option is defence (including CGB)

Then there are some effects for the one doing the parry (defender)
1. The next heavy attack is faster (maybe even the next combo starting with a heavy attack coult be faster and perhaps this heavy attack could chain directly into any combo chain).
2. The next heavy attacks could have increased chip damage, but don't know if this one is needed.
3. The next heavy attack costs no stamina.
4. The next heavy attack may inflict stun if it connects,
5. No options for light attacks, I know, but heavy attacks could get a bit of love through parry.
6. Several options for rewarding parry without, disabling the other person.

With this parry system in place, we could see some quick exchanges of parry back and forth, that would keep the combat going with no pause after a parry, but instead a feeling of urgency as parries speed up the action and change timings instead of breaking up the action.


Blocking
That leaves us with the more basic part of defence - blocking.

We have two tiers of attacks - light and heavy.
To match that two tiers of block would work very well - half and full block.

Half block
Getting to half block happends instantly when you switch guard. Half block allows you to completely block light attacks. From half block you can only parry heavy attacks. Heavy attacks hitting half block may do full or reduced damage. that's balancing.

Full block
as soon as you enter half block, the direction meter begins to fill up and after a number of frames it is full and you are in full block. When in full block you can block heavy attacks. The number of frames it takes to reach full block can vary from character to character, to give more balance options. The quick characters who are good at dodging may need a few more frames to reach full block.

For this to work, heavy attacks must be balanced in terms of speed across the board. they don't have to be the same, but must land within an acceptable range for balance to feel right.

------

Focus on "The art of battle"

Parry should give every character an omnidirectional unblockable attack, but not stagger the opponent so he can't defend at all. The GB from parry must go, it's a huge character imbalance issue and it is too powerful on many maps.

Then make feint smoother so it isn't just parry baiting. Feinting into another heavy attack should make the next heavy attack slightly quicker depending on when you press the feint button. So feint is fixed so you get control, within a reasonable window, when the feint happens. If you feint early the next next heavy is a bit quicker and if you feint late the next heavy is not as quick. This should be a smooth transition of course. This creates a variety in timing for both blocking and parrying.

Make feint a viable way to land a heavy and to create more dynamic mixups with regular attacks.

Focus on the three-way attacks/defence system and not parry, GB and the move looping.

GB could simply be a grab, that just allows a throw. The focus can be put on "the art of battle" the three-way attack/defence system, through feinting.

I really hope they approach the game in a way that pulls the "art of battle" forward as the main combat component.

[Netcode_err_404]

I was thinking that it may be a good idea to have a thread where we can put a big of weight behind our goal - to improve the game.

I have had several discussions with people on here about my own and other peoples suggestions. Even if I don't agree with everything I have read I do appreciate the passion of people, because this game could be the most awesome game we have ever played. And the game isn't that bad. There are some issues, but they can be fixed. The framework of the game is brilliant.

So instead of having many different threads spread out on the forums with us sort of arguing among ourselves about which solution is best - it may be more productive and helpful if we try to work toward a common goal. Comming up with solutions that may allow the game to reach the potential it had.

To be honest I don't care if it's my solution or someone elses. The only thing I care about is making the game fun so we can all kill each other with a big fat smile.

I have read many well thought out solutions and even ones I do not agree with, could have potential if they were tweaked. There are a lot of experienced people here who already know the game very well and have an idea about problems at both lower level of play and the higher level of play - and both must work.

I'm not going to present my idea here, because I already did that in a different thread, but I invite everyone to post their ideas for improving gameplay.

When you read an idea in this thread it will be helpful not to just comment on an idea not working. Try looking at an idea, run with it and see if you can tweak it or modify it so that it is better in your opinion. That would allow us to eventually come up with something that could be the gold nugget of wisdom that could actually help the developers. With that in mind, ideas that completely alter the game or change it significantly most likely won't work.

From the threads I have read and the discussions I have had, I know many of you are both passionate about the game and quite bright people with the capacity to make this work.

With that said, let's work together, and help each other make ideas presented here better than each of us can do on our own.

dON'T KNOW how to properfly fix the defensive meta

But something must be done, or the game will be too boring to even think about playing it.

We need more than temporarely fixes here, we are talking about core gameplay mechanics.

[Duskmare]

dON'T KNOW how to properfly fix the defensive meta

But something must be done, or the game will be too boring to even think about playing it.

We need more than temporarely fixes here, we are talking about core gameplay mechanics.

Honestly, I'm starting to think that perhaps it would be better to embrace the defense meta... I mean, that's obviously how the game was designed to be played. Perhaps we should talk about tweaking it so that playing defensively is more difficult against non-assassin characters. At the moment, any characters that can't attack as fast as the assassins are just going to be blocked, parried, dodged and deflected all day long.
I think that trying to remove the defense meta would mean removing the whole blocking system along with guard breaks, parrying, dodging and everything. Then it would purely be down to keeping the right distance between you and your opponent. I'm pretty sure that would be a rubbish game in comparison, with far more problems than this defense meta. For example, the nobushi would always have the advantage because of their range. This game simply isn't designed for aggressive fighting.

[Mr_Gallows]

I agree with the notion that we need to fix some core gameplay element before we can fix other stuff. But I do believe it can be done. The three-way attack defence system does present a system that could witj a few tweaks allow for a great balance between offensive and defensive play.

Someone posted a simple fix as the heavy attacks can only be parried as as such parry does no longer need to give a free attack as it in itself will be useful. While it may not work by just making that change it does illustrate that a small but powerful change can make a huge difference. A more soft version of it would be very heavy chip damage on heavy attacks unless you parry - also allowing the free attack from parry to no longer be a thing.

The defensive meta in itself wouldn't be so bad if it just meant fights were long. It's the rewards of playing defensively that is creating the incentive to do so, making people feel like being proactive is punished.

[Duskmare]

I agree with the notion that we need to fix some core gameplay element before we can fix other stuff. But I do believe it can be done. The three-way attack defence system does present a system that could witj a few tweaks allow for a great balance between offensive and defensive play.

Someone posted a simple fix as the heavy attacks can only be parried as as such parry does no longer need to give a free attack as it in itself will be useful. While it may not work by just making that change it does illustrate that a small but powerful change can make a huge difference. A more soft version of it would be very heavy chip damage on heavy attacks unless you parry - also allowing the free attack from parry to no longer be a thing.

The defensive meta in itself wouldn't be so bad if it just meant fights were long. It's the rewards of playing defensively that is creating the incentive to do so, making people feel like being proactive is punished.

I agree with pretty much all of that!

I think, as someone mentioned in another thread, they should really beef up the chip damage that heavy attacks do through blocks. That way, a parry on a heavy attack would be very useful for avoiding that damage but needn't give a free guard break afterward. At the moment it's nearly impossible to use a heavy attack without it being parried or at least blocked. Especially for slower characters. (I play Conqueror and I simply can't use any of my attacks without opening the enemy up with a guard break or shoulder bash first.)

Yeah, I agree there. Offence and defense need to be balanced. I think the way to do it would be to introduce more defense bypassing combo starters. Before, you could use the guard break, but now that's too easy to block, so it's pretty much useless. What we need are for every character to have a few fast combo starting attacks, and for dodging to use stamina. People are constantly dodging and it makes them almost impossible to hit, unless you get an excellently timed guard break. If dodging cost stamina then people would use it sparingly, especially the dodge attacks that assassins spam. It also means that people wouldn't be able to just endlessly retreat when they were exhausted.

[Netcode_err_404]

I agree with pretty much all of that!

I think, as someone mentioned in another thread, they should really beef up the chip damage that heavy attacks do through blocks. That way, a parry on a heavy attack would be very useful for avoiding that damage but needn't give a free guard break afterward. At the moment it's nearly impossible to use a heavy attack without it being parried or at least blocked. Especially for slower characters. (I play Conqueror and I simply can't use any of my attacks without opening the enemy up with a guard break or shoulder bash first.)

Yeah, I agree there. Offence and defense need to be balanced. I think the way to do it would be to introduce more defense bypassing combo starters. Before, you could use the guard break, but now that's too easy to block, so it's pretty much useless. What we need are for every character to have a few fast combo starting attacks, and for dodging to use stamina. People are constantly dodging and it makes them almost impossible to hit, unless you get an excellently timed guard break. If dodging cost stamina then people would use it sparingly, especially the dodge attacks that assassins spam. It also means that people wouldn't be able to just endlessly retreat when they were exhausted.

Yes, but fact is heavy attacks are too slow, for all classes, except assassins.

Have you ever tried to land an heavy with shugoki or Lawbringer ? Its almost a guaranteed parry.

Thats surely a start, but as i said we need to be extreme carefull here, or we risk to get the things worse.

Also a fix i would like to see is about 360 degrees total block ( conq, warlords), right now, that feature completely bypass the gameplay, also, total blocks shiudn't fill up revenge bar

[Duskmare]

Yes, but fact is heavy attacks are too slow, for all classes, except assassins.

Have you ever tried to land an heavy with shugoki or Lawbringer ? Its almost a guaranteed parry.

Thats surely a start, but as i said we need to be extreme carefull here, or we risk to get the things worse.

Also a fix i would like to see is about 360 degrees total block ( conq, warlords), right now, that feature completely bypass the gameplay, also, total blocks shiudn't fill up revenge bar

Yeah, heavy attacks are just too slow at the moment. They should perhaps shorten the parry window because it's too easy...
The Shugoki is alright cause he's supposed to trade blows. Also the charged version is unblockable which puts pressure on for the parry, and makes it harder to catch. Also, he's got other moves like his overpowered 'take a hit and guard break through it' which basically guarantees him some heavy damage on the enemy.
Also, Lawbringer has so many options for opening up an opponent that I don't think he's really disadvantaged. He's got his shove, a really fast guard break compared to other classes, and his over the shoulder throw. Plus his light attacks do about half a bar or more damage. So I would say he's fine.

I would have to disagree with the 360 total block. I almost never use it because it just leaves you totally open to a guard-break. It's also too slow to use as a faint, like they suggest in the tutorial videos. Not to mention how much stamina that kind of faint takes up.

[Netcode_err_404]

Yeah, heavy attacks are just too slow at the moment. They should perhaps shorten the parry window because it's too easy...
The Shugoki is alright cause he's supposed to trade blows. Also the charged version is unblockable which puts pressure on for the parry, and makes it harder to catch. Also, he's got other moves like his overpowered 'take a hit and guard break through it' which basically guarantees him some heavy damage on the enemy.
Also, Lawbringer has so many options for opening up an opponent that I don't think he's really disadvantaged. He's got his shove, a really fast guard break compared to other classes, and his over the shoulder throw. Plus his light attacks do about half a bar or more damage. So I would say he's fine.

I would have to disagree with the 360 total block. I almost never use it because it just leaves you totally open to a guard-break. It's also too slow to use as a faint, like they suggest in the tutorial videos. Not to mention how much stamina that kind of faint takes up.

I just named 2 of the most slow character in the game.

We are not talking about characters, we are talking about mechanics, right now, if your opponent is decent attacking with heavies means you will get rekt'd with a parry and a free GB.

If you have a bad positioning at the moment you will have a chat with the gravity. Or a full gratis r2 in the face.

[Mr_Gallows]

@Lord-Micidial

I think you are right about heavy attacks. They should have their speed balanced across all characters in combination with whatever fix is made for blocking. Even slightly slower heavy attack will be much easier to block and parry.

As for a full block, I think it is fine and has a place in the game. I do agree however that it should not generate revenge. Also if you are guardbroken when using full block it could drain all your stamina to make sure you fall down. This would make using the full block more skillful in response to attacks. It should perhaps be slightly more responsive to balance it out. Would that work to balance the full block better with a balance of risk/reward?

[Mr_Gallows]

One thing that should be changed is the consistency of defence. When parry is changed to no longer giving free damage, defence can be more responsive without gimping gameplay. Faster heavy attacks and parry to avoid chip damage. Then all blocks can be made perfectly responsive so you can change guard more consistently. Light attacks should give no damage flinch, allowing perfect change of guard when hit. Heavy attacks however should have some damage flinch. The balancing og this must be good or combos that has heavy followed by a light may become superiour. Feint could become a better tool, when you change your guard in response to a feint you will have a short guard change penalty of a few frames. Feints will of course be countered by attacking so the mind game becomes more important.

Guard break is good as it is now, if you can no longer get a free GB off a parry. Landing a GB will not be easy and may require feinting, but GB will still be quite powerful.

Small changes can make the game great, so that you don't have to just rely on cookie cutter mixups and throwing out that heavy will no longer be as dangerous.

Dodge could work with a few changes. If you dodge an attack you can get a free light attack, while you dodge however you will have no guard and cannot parry, so if the opponent feints he can hit you with an attack. Late dodging becomes important and dodge becomes more skilfull.