Please help the freaking raider | Forums

[Buccs99]

- He is a very dangerous character in all game modes and situations, imo.
- I agree with above, that the one tweak he really needs, imo, is the recovery frame and stance sped up just a bit.
- Raider is the f'ing man.

[Kharneth88]

Stance change speed needs to be normalized for all characters. No reason for a core mechanic to work better on some characters than others.

It might seem stupid, pointless, and unfair from a balance perspective, but it is a great addition to this game from a realistic or "makes sense" perspective. Some weapons, namely swords, are much easier to defend with and move around that other, less balanced weapons, such as axes and hammers. Some of the classes that have slow guard changes are strange, like Nobushi. It really makes no sense for hers to be slow. But Raider and Lawbringer really make a lot of sense and it's a good addition to the game.

They absolutely should not be equal in timing among all the classes, but, of course, if there are imbalances than they need to be balanced out in other areas or in other ways.

I also learned recently, whether right or wrong, that all classes do have the same guard changing speeds. What is happening but rarely noticed is that some classes have a delay after they've switched guards before they can switch again. So the Raider can go from left to right as quickly as Peacekeeper, but the Raider can't go from left to right and then to top as quickly because he'll be locked into his new stance for a moment longer than the faster classes. This means you need to be careful with where you put your guard as you can't change your mind in the middle of a strike.

[Ezcendant]

It might seem stupid, pointless, and unfair from a balance perspective, but it is a great addition to this game from a realistic or "makes sense" perspective.

Which should not be how you design or balance a multiplayer game.

I also learned recently, whether right or wrong, that all classes do have the same guard changing speeds. What is happening but rarely noticed is that some classes have a delay after they've switched guards before they can switch again. So the Raider can go from left to right as quickly as Peacekeeper, but the Raider can't go from left to right and then to top as quickly because he'll be locked into his new stance for a moment longer than the faster classes. This means you need to be careful with where you put your guard as you can't change your mind in the middle of a strike.

It also means that said PK can switch to a different attack angle which the raider can't follow.

[mint-car]

One very good trick I've seen Tru3ta1ent do with raider is to throw oponents to the ground while they are out of stamina, then do top heavy into zone attack. The top heavy is free and the zone attack does double damage as part of a chain. They can parry the zone attack, but that's the trick see? It's a true 50/50 since they have to commit to the parry. You can't feint when out of stamina. So they can either eat a ZA for double damage, or parry and risk being counter parried while out of stamina, being thrown to the ground and hit for another top heavy then they are right back in the 50/50 again. It's really great, but seems a bit hard to pull off.

[REDBOILOUU]

One very good trick I've seen Tru3ta1ent do with raider is to throw oponents to the ground while they are out of stamina, then do top heavy into zone attack. The top heavy is free and the zone attack does double damage as part of a chain. They can parry the zone attack, but that's the trick see? It's a true 50/50 since they have to commit to the parry. You can't feint when out of stamina. So they can either eat a ZA for double damage, or parry and risk being counter parried while out of stamina, being thrown to the ground and hit for another top heavy then they are right back in the 50/50 again. It's really great, but seems a bit hard to pull off.

Absolutely! This is a tatic I use very often. I think though, this is a tatic anybody can use since once anyone is out of stamina they can be thrown to the ground after an guardbreak. This does in fact benefit the raider as he gets a free heavy and I myself usually throw a ZA in right after, its a good combo. Yet, still the UNBLOCKABLE ZA in general without any prior actions, needs some accomodation.

[REDBOILOUU]

Stance change speed needs to be normalized for all characters. No reason for a core mechanic to work better on some characters than others.

Heavily agreed

[REDBOILOUU]

I dont know if people that speak against what the OP is saying play the raider at all or if ever. Its so easy to say look at this vid or try that. Bear in mind the other people will work you if your raider supposed unblockable attack isparried. 3v1 4v1 all the more worse. Here is how it works example: 3v1 4v1 is even worse. Your in revenge mode you swing your unblockable it gets parried. the other 2 hack and slash so fast and your dead before you know it. Even if you get off another unblockable it gets parried. So sorry the revenge for the raider is useless. He is too slow to do anything in that situation. The raider's unblockable attack needs to be just that UNBLOCKABLE/parried. Thats the facts jack. You can disagree all you want. Play one and find out.

Thanks for the understanding! As I am completely open to discssion I think those who are speaking strategies and tatics are not aware of or expereinced with the usage of the raider. To truly understand you need to have put the hours in and learned his true flaws in competitive matches to see the injustice. Even though most my concerns are related to 1v1 scenarios I can see and relate to your views on the raider as well in larger party modes.

[Kharneth88]

The way you kill people with the unblockable is by feinting it the first time you use it. Sometimes the second time. Sometimes the 3rd time.

I play him, too. Have been for a few days. The only time the unblockable works the first time is if your enemy isn't paying attention to you or doesn't parry. Feint with it once or twice and you'll have success with it in the future.

[luridrex]

TL;DR whole thread.

I agree the Raider is at a huge disadvantage currently because ALL of his moves are highly telegraphed, not just his Unblockable. He's marketed as a grappler, but with the changes to guard break, that's been highly nerfed. Even with a successful guardbreak, a heavy attack is not guaranteed unless you throw them into a wall or they are knocked down. Even his light attacks are slow and telegraphed. He's SO slow, the raider can attack first and most other classes can attack immediately after and still hit first, interrupting his attack animation. His only gap closer has only one option and that's an overhead attack, so at range just block up and be prepared to counter break in case of charging guard break. Done. You've beaten the Raider. I'm upset about this because he is immensly fun to play, if not frustratingly outclassed sometimes.

EDIT: I forgot to wrap up my point, and that is that the Raider needs at least one of the following things:
1. Faster attack animations (his light attacks at the very least, but his moveset is heavily focused on heavy attacks and they are embarassingly easy to parry)
2. A trait similar to the Shugoki so that he is not so easily interrupted, possibly he is uninterruptible during heavy attacks? Possibly on a cooldown like Shugoki?
3. A broader moveset that gives him more options to fake out his opponent. He only currently has the default fake out and the Heavy-fake-into-stunning-tap, which is not a lot of options considering he is so focused his heavy slow attacks.
4. A Charging move similar to the Warden/Warlord. He is marketed as a crowd controller, but in his current state it's laughable.

[Kharneth88]

TL;DR whole thread.

I agree the Raider is at a huge disadvantage currently because ALL of his moves are highly telegraphed, not just his Unblockable. He's marketed as a grappler, but with the changes to guard break, that's been highly nerfed. Even with a successful guardbreak, a heavy attack is not guaranteed unless you throw them into a wall or they are knocked down. Even his light attacks are slow and telegraphed. He's SO slow, the raider can attack first and most other classes can attack immediately after and still hit first, interrupting his attack animation. His only gap closer has only one option and that's an overhead attack, so at range just block up and be prepared to counter break in case of charging guard break. Done. You've beaten the Raider. I'm upset about this because he is immensly fun to play, if not frustratingly outclassed sometimes.

EDIT: I forgot to wrap up my point, and that is that the Raider needs at least one of the following things:
1. Faster attack animations (his light attacks at the very least, but his moveset is heavily focused on heavy attacks and they are embarassingly easy to parry)
2. A trait similar to the Shugoki so that he is not so easily interrupted, possibly he is uninterruptible during heavy attacks? Possibly on a cooldown like Shugoki?
3. A broader moveset that gives him more options to fake out his opponent. He only currently has the default fake out and the Heavy-fake-into-stunning-tap, which is not a lot of options considering he is so focused his heavy slow attacks.
4. A Charging move similar to the Warden/Warlord. He is marketed as a crowd controller, but in his current state it's laughable.

The Raider doesn't have these issues if you play him better. If you want to guard break people more you need to learn how to parry. Parrying and feinting are how to win with him. Feint his heavies and no amount of telegraphing will help your foe know whether or not to parry or dodge your attack. Feint the unblockable. Does your enemy dodge or parry? If he parries, feint again and prepare to parry his parry. If he dodges, feint again and guard break. Maybe later, don't feint at all and kill him with it.

Enemy is blocking up? You have 2 gap closers. Go for a dodge guard break. Maybe he'll interrupt it, maybe not, either way, you've closed the gap. I really hope they don't buff him. I am doing pretty well with him and just started using him on Thursday. If he gets a buff then people will jump on him and he'll be everywhere since he's already a decent competitor in 1v1 or 4v4.

Attacks don't need to be faster, you need to feint them more. You're being parried because you aren't feinting. I use his light attacks A LOT. His moveset isn't based on heavies at all. Many a time I'll use light attack unblockable, or light, light, light. Or I'll pommel bash, light and then start the light chain into the unblockable.

No one need's Shugoki's hyper armor. If anything, you could give Raiders what zerker and warlord have and make his heavies have armor during the last half or last quarter, but even then, he doesn't need them. What he needs is a player to not spam his heavy attacks into an enemy who is right up in his face. I usually miss my first attack. That's the usual strategy most of the time. Just barely miss the first attack and then hit with the second, maybe feint it or do a zone.

Regular feint is. all. you. need. This isn't Kensei. There is no subtlety to Raider. You don't need more bells and whistles, you need to learn how to utilize his kit fully.

What???? He already has a two charging moves, a CC one and a damage one. His is actually better than Warlord's. Sounds like what you're talking about is a shoulder bash/head butt kind of attack. He has it already. It's the stunning pommel strike. And it's actually quite better in the context of his other attacks. With such telegraphed attacks, keeping the enemy stunned and at low stamina is vital. Stun them, kick them in the face, and parry them.

The only thing laughable is that fact that instead of utilizing the general mechanics of the game you're asking for more class specific options. Go take a page out of the Warden's handbook and learn how to fully utilize the general moves, because they're extremely useful on the Raider.