One stone, two birds ! The Deflect / Parry fix | Forums

[The_Mensan]

So currently, non-Assassins has an unseen advantage (try and pay attention to it the next time you fight one type or the other). Non-Assassins have auto-guard in one direction and it seems like it activates BEFORE the normal hit stun of a move is over.

Example:

Orochi's Storm Rush into top Light x2 combo will work on EVERY ASSASSIN. Because Assassin's don't have a real guard, and needs to "switch guard" to block (8 frames). He cannot switch fast enough to prevent the Top Light x2 after getting hit by a Storm Rush.

However... Other heroes can IF their guard was already on TOP prior to getting Storm Rushed. The auto-guard property hits before you can normally react, so you can will block top automatically even when you can't dodge / parry / attack. This advantage makes non-Assassin invulnerable to A LOT of combos that Assassins are vulnerable to.

So what does an Assassin gain in exchange of this GLARING weakness? Deflect. Now Deflect is super strong, it's a counter that gives you a free Light Attack worth of damage 100% and pretty cool... IF PARRY DOESN'T EXIST. Currently, Parry is pretty much identical to deflect in timing WHILE having the bonus of "if you fail, at least you are blocking or attacking". Deflect, if you fail only dodges.

The problem with Dodge is the lack of I-Frame in the very startup. You can test this by dodging light attack of say... Warden or PK's at the very last second and you will see yourself starting to dodge BUT still get hit. This is because the I-Frame of a dodge starts a few frames later.

This makes Deflect virtually UN-USABLE !!! A good player doesn't mess up Deflect by like 5 frames, lol... Maybe in the heat of battle, you mess it up by 1 frame or 2. So in this case, if I thought I was deflecting a light, pressed Deflect too soon (got a dodge instead) but run into a heavy attack. If you dodge is JUST STARTING, the attack will hit you. Thus a failed Deflect is not safe about 50% of the time. It's not a "option select" because a failed deflect into a dodge is NOT safe for a few frames. A failed parry into a block is 100% safe (if you parry too late and blocked instead). A failed parry into heavy against a GB is 100% safe...

So to solve this GLARING weakness of assassins, I propose the following:

Give the startup 1-2 frame of dodge Invul properties. This won't OP the dodge at high level, because people will usually deflect with that anyways, the dodge is just a backup plan. THIS WILL however make deflect a "safer" option than parry, thus making it NOT REDUNDANT on an Assassin. We are talking about the startup frames, it's a very minor upgrade.

Alternatively, let the dodge attack start quicker could help too, this way our dodge because a viable tool against Warden's 50/50 because you can avoid GB with the dodge attack. Currently, a quick GB will grab you out of the startup frame of your dodge making it a uncounterable GB which makes dodge a very risky move.

So either one of those suggestions will give assassins an edge to move out of the low to mid tier status at top level. When is the last time an Orochi came close to winning any tournaments or beating a good Warden / Warlord?

===---=== I want to explain the difference between Dodge/Deflect and Parry/Block (true option select) ===---===

The numbers are fake, but the concept is the same.

Let's say your dodge is active (invulnerable) in frame 5-10. Let's say you can deflect an attack when it flashes (say the last 3 frames of a heavy attack).

So if someone attacks you and you are PERFECT. You can theoretically deflect everytime within the 3 frames. However humans do not have perfect reflexes down to a matter of a few frames (a frame is like 1/60 of a second). So in practice, we have RANGES.

Of course if I deflect TOO LATE (after the 3 deflectable frames in an attack), I get hit, period. So as a player, you want to time your deflect a bit earliers SO IF YOU FAIL, YOU CAN STILL DODGE. That's the logic behind option-select. Two situations both are covered by your button inputs (dodge and deflect is the same input). However, in this case, it doesn't work ! Because imagine if you try to "deflect" earlier and sometimes you deflect TOO EARLY and you end up doing it before the 3 deflectable frames. NOW your input makes you start a dodge. This would be OK, if your dodge works immediately, but it doesn't. Your dodge only works after 5 frames, so once the heavy attack go through the 3 deflectable frames (you are starting to spin), it HITS YOU before you go into your frame 5 of your dodge !

Block and Parry has no gap. Block is active for a very long time and all you have to do is focus on parrying at the last second. If you fail the parry, you would not get hit because your block is active (note that if you parry TOO EARLY, you still get hit, so the option select works only if you parry as late as possible).

I feel like I should write a guide about this...

[Oni_sensei]

I have to agree with this deflect isn't a viable option at higher level play. Except for maybe berserker who gets a free guard break the damage gained off a delfect makes in far less useful compared to parry. I'm sure most assassins would willingly give up deflect for the full guard every other class gets.

[meppho]

I have to agree with this deflect isn't a viable option at higher level play. Except for maybe berserker who gets a free guard break the damage gained off a delfect makes in far less useful compared to parry. I'm sure most assassins would willingly give up deflect for the full guard every other class gets.

I main Warden, and the only other character I play somewhat consistently is Orochi.
Due to this, I play a quite defensive style even on Orochi, and I use both parries and deflects on him. Parries are easier, but deflects have uses like closing distances on a Nobuchi or dealing a metric ****ton of damage with an r2 counter (I use the passive feat for increased damage after a deflect) on a slow foe.

Also, the outcome of failures are different: where parries may be feinted to try and get a block or you get straight hit, deflects are usually a success or a clean dodge attack.
I do feel the parry window is larger than the deflect one tho.

[The_Mensan]

I main Warden, and the only other character I play somewhat consistently is Orochi.
Due to this, I play a quite defensive style even on Orochi, and I use both parries and deflects on him. Parries are easier, but deflects have uses like closing distances on a Nobuchi or dealing a metric ****ton of damage with an r2 counter (I use the passive feat for increased damage after a deflect) on a slow foe.

Also, the outcome of failures are different: where parries may be feinted to try and get a block or you get straight hit, deflects are usually a success or a clean dodge attack.
I do feel the parry window is larger than the deflect one tho.

I pretend the R2 option doesn't exist.

Who in the right mind choose to use an option for 2x the damage that works about 10% of the time. Your opponent have to be an idiot to NOT REACTION LIGHT ATTACK after the deflect flash. If your opponent is SO BAD that you can R2 them after a deflect, you can also faceroll your controller and win, thus R2 provides no real advantage in improving winrate and matchup.

Deflect can only give you about 1 Light worth of 100% damage, no more from any of the 3 assassins. It's basically a weaker parry. MAYBE there's a niche use, you might accidentally DEFLECT if you tried to dodge a unblockable that got cancelled into a side attack from a Kensei. But even then, your timing has to OFF in order for that to come out. If you are a GOOD PLAYER, deflect doesn't option select into dodge, that's one of the reason why it's so bad.

[The_Mensan]

I think there is a misunderstanding here on the difference between parry and deflect. I main PK and here is my view on the matter. Parry occurs on a block attempt while deflect is on a dodge. Those cannot be much compared in terms of efficiency cause they are not coming from the same type of move at all.

When you decide to parry, it means you are in a block mindset. On the other hand, you don't decide much to deflect. Putting any effort in trying to deflect is just a waste of time in high level gameplay and it's dangerous besides. The deflect is basically your last chance to avoid an attack that your dodge almost failed. So parry is an active tool while deflect is a last minute save non-assassin characters don't get if they try to actively dodge an opponent. So in that sense, deflect is actually a very good move for assassins and as strong as parry is for non-assassin classes which rely more on blocking.

You have as well to take something else into account: you get injured on a successful block while you are not on a successful dodge and in that sense, dodge is a superior move compared to blocking.

The option select aspect of deflect / dodge doesn't work. That's the problem

The timing of dodge and deflect's active windows do not actually align. What this means is that if you correctly try to dodge, you will not successfully deflect an attack... and vice versa. The timing windows is too different.

For example. when someone swing at you and you want to dodge. You would think that you either 1) dodge successfully OR 2) Deflect the blow. Except there's a gap in between that messes up your option select. If you dodge too late, you do not get into deflect timing window yet (instead you are in the beginning animation of your dodge with no I-Frames), you will simply get hit.

Try it against someone spamming light and dodge it slower and slower until you get to a point where the dodge is too slow but you are not slow enough to deflect. That's why deflect sucks right now. Block + Parry is gapless. If you parry too late, you block. You can time your parry to be the latest possible frame so you can always option-select block if you failed the parry.

I would be very happy if they either increase the deflect window OR if they give Dodge I-Frames at startup. This way, I can do my dodge AS LATE AS POSSIBLE to get either "a successful dodge" OR an option-select backup "deflect".

[meppho]

I pretend the R2 option doesn't exist.

Who in the right mind choose to use an option for 2x the damage that works about 10% of the time. Your opponent have to be an idiot to NOT REACTION LIGHT ATTACK after the deflect flash. If your opponent is SO BAD that you can R2 them after a deflect, you can also faceroll your controller and win, thus R2 provides no real advantage in improving winrate and matchup.

Deflect can only give you about 1 Light worth of 100% damage, no more from any of the 3 assassins. It's basically a weaker parry. MAYBE there's a niche use, you might accidentally DEFLECT if you tried to dodge a unblockable that got cancelled into a side attack from a Kensei. But even then, your timing has to OFF in order for that to come out. If you are a GOOD PLAYER, deflect doesn't option select into dodge, that's one of the reason why it's so bad.

Deflect R2 can be canceled.

[The_Mensan]

Deflect R2 can be canceled.

Into what? You need finish your train of thought, lol... A Dodge-Attack (one light worth of damage) Or a GB (also beaten by light attack). How is this a better mathematical option that taking the R1 damage immediately instead of playing a 50/50 for one light worth of damage? You can 100% do 15 damage or you can 50% do 15 damage + 10% do 25 damage, choose.

In top level play, no one cares about substandard options. You can give a character a million other moves that's similar but weaker and they simply won't be used. The best option on average after a deflect for Orochi is the R1. It's not even a "slightly better" option, it's almost a "strictly better" option if your opponent is not a complete noob.