Senior Member
Yes that video shows a completely broken GB system, where you will in many cases have no idea what's going to happen when you press the button. Both initiating GB at the same time should just cancel both.Originally Posted by Tatsumaru. Go to original post
Broken system.
Junior Member
Generally agree, but I will say that sometimes it just feels like it doesn't work? I wonder if there's a lag component which affects the timing against certain players, or in certain situations (remember, your lag each player will be different due to the p2p architecture). For example, in 1v1's now that I've put in a lot of practice, I can guard break MUCH more reliably than I used to be able to. Mostly this is me learning the matchups and timings of different classes.Originally Posted by Gen.Armchair Go to original post
Last night I was playing a bunch and was probably hitting 60-75% of my guard break counters, that's damn good for me. This morning playing some Dominion, and I didn't hit 1 in 3 matches, except by accident. I also didn't hit a single parry and missed LOADS of blocks too. To me it felt like I was lagging - maybe I was?
Well worth checking your ping etc. and doing some bot tests to see if you can do it there reliably. I have the feeling from my games today that sometimes the window is a lot shorter in reality than it is in theory.
Junior Member
Not a broken system, 1 (apparently) broken aspect still it seems:Originally Posted by Mr_Gallows Go to original post
1. Guard break counter works much better now.
2. Guard break catches dodges - rock, paper, scissors. If you think your opponent will GB, don't dodge, light attack instead.
3. Follow up guard breaks - if you GB instantly after a GB attempt that connected but you didn't follow up on, you'll miss. Stops GB spamming. If you don't follow up a GB, don't try and GB instantly, you'll miss.
4. Simultaneous guard breaks - seems in some situations its still wierd. From my own play since the patch I'll say it IS possible to counter out of a guard break when you both did it at the same time. this seems to show that it doesn't always work. Fair enough - that's a question for UBI.
On point 4: Personally, I agree with the view that if you both do a GB within a certain time window it should just cancel out (like a tech throw in almost any fighting game). Push both players back a *short* distance, cost both players equal stamina and then carry on.
Member
I already don't like this video 1 minute in. There's no button press overlay to show when he is pressing the button, it just shows him counter GB successfully, then a message pops up saying "As you can see, it's easier now". So many people could have done that successfully that many times in a row pre-patch.Originally Posted by Tatsumaru. Go to original post
Also, GB is supposed to catch you mid-dodge. It's an anti-defensive move, since dodge counters many swings like block, GB counters dodges and blocks. If you're an assassin who relies on dodging, you can to a dodge-attack which then blocks the GB, since you're attacking. That's how it's supposed to work. You aren't supposed to just dodge around like an animal avoiding everything they might do.
And what kind of point is he trying to make about GB spam? If you let a GB go the full duration, then they can't immediately grab you, but you can grab them back? Does this actually work on players or is it a bot limitation? And even so, that situation has literally never happened to me. If I get GB'd, and they don't do anything to me, I don't come out and immediately try to GB them back. That sounds like a terrible idea to begin with, so why would anyone do it? Is this supposed to show that you can "troll" someone by just grabbing and holding them repeatedly, because every time you let go they try to GB you immediately instead of doing *literally anything else*?
The only interesting thing here is when the bot uses GB after the player starts it, but again, is this limited to bot behavior? Bots already do strange things sometimes, like recover faster than a gear-disabled player after parries and such.
This is only a good vid if your confirmation bias is showing.
Junior Member
I'm not 100% certain on this. To me it definitely feels like a change since pre-patch. I've def been caught with a GB while pressing GB myself, and then been able to counter GB out of it which I never was able to do pre-patch. That I at least have a chance to GB is good and very welcome; maybe there's still wierd timing with it that means you can't counter it in certain situations - I'm not sure.Originally Posted by PrimaGoosa Go to original post
See my edit below... this was my original thinking, but I'm not so sure any more....
What I do agree with, as per my previous comment, is the view that if both you and your opponent decide to GB at the same moment (+- some leeway of course for lag and what have you), NEITHER player should get an advantage (in general). This is different to say, 2 players deciding to light attack at the same time. Different characters and different attacks have different properties (see also Shugoki where that is pretty much his playstyle!), but GB is pretty much constant across the whole cast as far as I can see. Therefore, the only decision is "should I GB now". If both of you decide to do it at the same time, then that is symmetric and noone should get an advantage (in general).
I would probably opt for something like a throw tech in a fighting game which seems the most analogous situation to me. Play the GB counter effect or something similar, and push both characters back a short way so they end up neutral, where they started.
This doesn't mean that in all situations neither player can come out behind from this... and that's fine. For example, if you were on the lip of an edge, maybe the recovery would push you over. Maybe the recovery could stagger you against a wall. That's something that would need tweaking and balancing from gameplay guys much smarter than me, but it still means there's potential for strategic decision making, even in the neutral GB Countter situation. For example, the following mind games:
* Oppnent next to ledge, want to throw them over, so want to GB.
* Know that if they GB at the same time, the "double counter" will happen and they'll just get pushed over the edge, so GB becomes a REALLY good option.
* Opponent knows this, so chooses to delay GB so he can GB counter to get the enemy off him.
* You know your oppnant knows this so you delay your gb to get the simultaneous effect.....
* etc to Yomi level 90000.
In short, what I don't like is a system that feels arbitrary. Who gets (hit/parried/grabbed) should ALWAYS follow predictable rules. This is the only bit that feels wrong to me at the moment - it seems that in the case you both hit GB together, the game "arbitrarily" decides who gets GB, and who has to play the counter QTE game.
Maybe it's not really arbitrary? Maybe it's whoever pressed it first/last based on frame number since the last syncronization. Maybe it's always whichever player's attack got into the queue first etc. Maybe it's just lag that lets it *appear* that your GB started, and really you got GB from block?
Whatever the reason, it should be obvious and predictable for players so that it can be incorporated into play and mind games. That's my opinion anyway.
EDIT:
re-reading this and I'm actually more confused now that I was when I started. I was thinking about WHY it might be the way it is at the moment. I still don't think it feels right, but if we imagine that simultaneous guard breaks just resulted in a neutral outcome - what's the impact that would have.
It maybe makes for a more spammy and less reactionary play style.
* At present, the only way "out" of a GB is to CGB with precise timing. You can't do anything to "get out ahead of time" (except for attacking etc.)
* With the above system, you can just go for the grab yourself, like a tech throw in a fighting game.
* This would make it much harder to land grabs in the first place at all, because they have 2 points of "escape", 1) predict the incoming grab and grab at the same time and 2) counter once grabbed.
* Given how important grabs are as a core mechanic and setup for a lot of skills etc., grabs being much easier to avoid would reduce srategic diversity a lot.
* If you accept that, but want to keep the "new" grab mechanic then you could remove the guard break counter entirely. Now grabs are harder to land (because they are easier to avoid) but are guarenteed to give you whatever you wanted from the grab in the first place.
The net result is that you have a:
* More predictable guard break system (from a player perspective)
* at the "cost" of more "mash" friendly inputs
* where guard breaks will land less often
* but are guaranteed results if you do land one
This is exactly analogous with a trad fighting game where skilled players are rarely thrown because they know when to tech grabs in combos etc.
Compared to currently:
* Occasionally unpredictable system
* Skill / reaction based get out mechanic
* More grabs land
* Less certain of the outcome of each.
Despite my original thinking, I'm really not sure which way is better? It certainly FEELS bad when you press grab, but end up grabbed (like in the video). It FEELS like you got punished for making a "good" call, and often when that happens I'm surprised and don't react fast enough to counter.
However, I'm not sure I like the alternative. If I setup a situation where grab is my best option, I actually don't want it to be trivially easy to counter my grab...
Game design ain't easy!
Senior Member
Well yeah didn't mean the entire game was broken, but those elements of GB are. The same holds true for the very core of the game. The three-way attack/defence system that should be the main attraction, simply does not work, because blocking cannot be balanced against two very different attack speeds with the current block mechanic. Everything else should support this core mechanic, but instead the added attacks and options attempt to remedy the fact that it is very badly balanced. If the game had just one attack speed, it could be done, but it doesn't. They should just make block follow similar principles and it would allow balancing away from the turtle meta and the need for GB as the only viable way to hit with a heavy.
Member
Actually, with the proper conditioning, you can land heavies if you make your opponent think you always feint then go into a fast attack from a different direction. They'll anticipate you going a different direction by reflex, then your heavy that you typically feint just goes through and hits them. I've seen it happen a lot, especially when someone plays Raider. Cancel side heavies into the top stun attack several times, then just let the heavy go through.
There's a time and a place for heavies even in matchups where both players know what they are doing. It isn't only after a GB.
Senior Member
Heavies are unsafe and when many characters have perfectly safe options, it would not be optimal play at all. Yes you can land them against some people but if your opponent knows what he is doing, he will punish you for taking initiative with an unsafe heavy. With a slight revamp of heavy blocking, they would be fine. The problem is safe mixups, that cannot be punished or are very hard to punish. Plus free punish simply because you parry.Originally Posted by PrimaGoosa Go to original post
Junior Member
Damn, this is shiiit =( i use 360 gamepad on PC too, and a lot of times im going to press X ... and press START ...Originally Posted by Tatsumaru. Go to original post
And again you need to leave all the damn buttons or cant leave menú just pressing B. hehe this sucks.
Member
Heavies are unsafe, but in the right situation they still land.Originally Posted by Mr_Gallows Go to original post
Check the time on this vid: https://youtu.be/3Zn8rQO7pIM?t=48s
To end the fight he does two things: first, he cancels the side-heavy into the top stun while the Orochi tries to parry the side heavy. Then, he just lets the heavy through, and you see his opponent go from blocking to the side to trying to parry the subsequent top stun again. Instead he eats the heavy and dies.
It isn't like he doesn't know what he's doing, but it got into his head and a simple side heavy went through for the kill. Often times trying to stick to purely optimal moves makes you predictable, and predictability is a death sentence.
