The revenge stats need to be removed from gear outright. | Forums

[meppho]

Because you said that "not spamming for the lulzgank" would prevent it, which is clearly not true.

You are not alone. It doesn't matter if it's you spamming or the guy next to you. Do you understand this?

You did the exact same thing, you just disagreed without bringing forth a point, hypocrite.

I don't even remember by now, nor do I care. This river of tears has been running too long. I'll just say "ok". If you got a point say it else whatever.

It's the only viable way to gear, I'm not putting myself at a disadvantage for no reason - This is the way the game is currently designed, I will play it optimally until it is changed.

This is the typical scrublord excuse. The next one is "everybody does that".
But whatever, I have no interest in discussing this. I don't care about you. Can we drop it?

An advantage puts you above other players, not being at a disadvantage means being on the same level, do you not own a dictionary?

This would make sense if everyone had your same "revenge stacking". If you and some other use (abuse?) it, while others can't, you are at an advantage.
You are implying everyone does what you do, see previous point.

Yes, he said "stacking of values that were not intended, especially on the Revenge", which means stacking revenge stats, how are you not getting this? They knew how much revenge gain by defense they were putting on one item, how could they have not known that? They didn't expect people to stack revenge stats from multiple items.

It means stat stacking is going out of hand, ESPECIALLY on the revenge. It's ****ing literal. You are interpreting it as if it was written "Revenge stacking is getting out of hand".
Re-read my previous answer. The example is the only specific thing you can get from that vague comment.

Maybe, but if that person had 108 gear stacking revenge would have gotten it what, nearly every fight instead of what I can only assume is maybe 5-10% of them? And then done triple damage during all of them instead of double while also being more durable than normal revenge? #totallybalanced.

Who cares about the ifs? Point is it still procs where it shouldn't even without gear. Numbers are ****ed up in the baseline already, no wonder it goes nuts with exponential buffs.
Stop whining, think.

[Divenity]

This would make sense if everyone had your same "revenge stacking". If you and some other use (abuse?) it, while others can't, you are at an advantage.
You are implying everyone does what you do, see previous point.

everyone in my queue bracket who has gear is stacking revenge stats, I have yet to see a single person who doesn't, I am not going to put myself at a disadvantage by not using it.

It means stat stacking is going out of hand, ESPECIALLY on the revenge. It's ****ing literal. You are interpreting it as if it was written "Revenge stacking is getting out of hand".
Re-read my previous answer. The example is the only specific thing you can get from that vague comment.

Yes, it applies to all stats, especially revenge, where is our disagreement there?

Stat stacking with other things can happen too, like stamina regen, stamaina cost reduction, and exhaustion recovery, making the exhausted state come less often and be shorter, making punishment of exhaustion extremely difficult, those things can stack - These things can also stack with attack, increasing offensive capability possibly more than intended, or make being parried far less punishing due to the combined increased stamina pool and faster recovery.

stacking isn't a single stat, it's putting multiple things together.

Who cares about the ifs? Point is it still procs where it shouldn't even without gear. Numbers are ****ed up in the baseline already, no wonder it goes nuts with exponential buffs.
Stop whining, think.

And even more ****ed up with modifiers, they would be slightly less ****ed with modifiers if the baseline was lower, but still ****ed.

[Jersmall]

just finished a match with a warlord who shielded never attacked till he got revenge. once he got revenge he would run up and just head butt you to knock you down and attack you that way, since that's what revenge does.

plus its unblockable.

[Divenity]

just finished a match with a warlord who shielded never attacked till he got revenge. once he got revenge he would run up and just head butt you to knock you down and attack you that way, since that's what revenge does.

plus its unblockable.

you can dodge the headbut... That being said, I don't think revenge should make that also knock down... it makes revenge far more powerful for classes which have an effect like that (conq shield bash does it too), many don't, and warlord/conq are already considered two of the best classes in the game before consideration for how revenge modifies their unblockables.

[The_Mensan]

It's a necessary evil. It's holding 5 slots of gear stats, what else should be there instead?

How else do you fight 3 other players at once?

[meppho]

everyone in my queue bracket who has gear is stacking revenge stats, I have yet to see a single person who doesn't, I am not going to put myself at a disadvantage by not using it.

How exactly do you inspect their stats? Far as I know the only thing you can see is their itmlvl. This might very well be true or personal perception. What you can know for certain is that you can avoid doing that if you think it's broken.
For instance, as I play warden, I use shoulder bash very sparingly because I think it's unbalanced, and when I do I usually use it once, seldom twice and I think I only used it 3 times a few times against people who I thought deserved no respect.
To me, a fair loss is more enjoyable than a cheap win. If you want to jump on the bandwagon that's entirely fine, but don't act like you're forced to.

By the same logic, we could take WoW 2v2 arenas and say that everyone should just play the best setup if they want to compete. In reality, while you usually saw that (more realistically those few) setup spammed along mid and low ratings, the higher you go the lesser that's the case. And thats in a VERY gear dependant environement.
Fighting games are usually an even clearer example. While there are badly balanced ones that effectively present very few characters in the top spots, you generally see the player making all the difference, not the character.

All of that being said, a game is supposed to bring fun. If you have fun cheesing it's totally your right and I have zero problems with it. But complaining something is broken and still abusing it is silly. Making excuses for it is plain childish, especially since you really don't need to.

Yes, it applies to all stats, especially revenge, where is our disagreement there?

That they agreed with you. They didn't, you just took a general statement and used it to confirm your own specific point.
For all you know they might lower the base attack scaling on weapons and leave the added revenge attack as it is.
They only confirmed thinking revenge comes up too fast, which is something we all agree upon, I think.

Stat stacking with other things can happen too, like stamina regen, stamaina cost reduction, and exhaustion recovery, making the exhausted state come less often and be shorter, making punishment of exhaustion extremely difficult, those things can stack - These things can also stack with attack, increasing offensive capability possibly more than intended, or make being parried far less punishing due to the combined increased stamina pool and faster recovery.

While I think stamina exhaustion is a way smaller deal than what it, I think, should be, I'm not sure what your point here was. You kind of stated the obvious but didn't elaborate on it?

stacking isn't a single stat, it's putting multiple things together.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stack
It applies to both. You can stack multiple quantities of the same thing, or stack multiple things in the same "pile".
Again, not sure what's the point.

And even more ****ed up with modifiers, they would be slightly less ****ed with modifiers if the baseline was lower, but still ****ed.

Yes. That's kind of obvious again?

[edit]

you can dodge the headbut... That being said, I don't think revenge should make that also knock down... it makes revenge far more powerful for classes which have an effect like that (conq shield bash does it too), many don't, and warlord/conq are already considered two of the best classes in the game before consideration for how revenge modifies their unblockables.

This I agree with. Knockdowns are powerful by themselves, and shouldn't be granted by such easy to connect skills.
I'm assuming they didn't think that through very well, considering there's a feat giving you knowdowns for a short time which is rendered completely unworthy by this.

[Divenity]

It's a necessary evil. It's holding 5 slots of gear stats, what else should be there instead?

I don't know, that's a discussion Ubi would need to give input on... From my time on Reddit and here I've seen that many people think revives are too strong right now, maybe drop the base revive health down to 25% and give a stat that can raise it up to ~75% when maxed, do one for stamina too, that's 2 stats replaced, make them utility, not directly combat related.

How else do you fight 3 other players at once?

How do you fight 3 people at once in other multipllayer games? You are supposed to be at an extreme disadvantage when outnumbered, that is how every single multiplayer game ever made has worked.... Counter Strike doesn't give you a temporary 3x damage boost and double health when the rest of your team dies, or when you have 3 players rush a corner you are guarding alone - you rely on your team or you die, or you clutch like crazy and maybe pull a win out of your ***, stacking revenge stats makes pulling that win out way too easy when it should be nearly impossible... It's a team based game mode, you are supposed to play as a team.

You don't need the stats to modify revenge to let you stay alive for a bit in a 3v1, it does that well enough without modifiers... We should consider ourselves lucky they put revenge in the game at all, they very easily could have left it out.

[MercenaryJames]

As someone who rocks the 108 Revenge build. It's broken. Revenge should only be useful for being Ganked. As it stands, it's sole use now is for seeking situations you shouldn't survive and relying on your stacked Gear to overwhelm your opponents. I consider myself very skilled, and I've faced many people I should have died from, but because I can pop my Revenge even against 1 person I am surprised if I ever die.

What I have recently discovered is a new method. Peacekeepers and Nobushi especially will simply not attack. Rather build their revenge by blocking or parrying you. Should you even land a few hits then the Revenge pops and it only requires 2 hits to be killed. Fought a Peacekeeper 1v1 (Dominion) and because of the current broken state of the class, she can maintain a defensive posture and cannot be GB or fluked by feints. Once her Revenge pops it's over. One mistake and you're done. Better yet, she'd run into our spawn and kill everyone. The more who spawn in the faster she pops revenge. Thus she is unkillable. This is the problem. It's a broken mechanic combined with high skill level, combined with faster characters that make it nearly impossible to counter.

To not see that it is broken simply implies a willing ignorance or just being part of the problem.

[RLTygurr]

So to summarize just about everything in this thread...

Revenge gain from gear needs to be nerfed or removed. Revenge ATTACK and DEFENSE can stay how they are. Revenge should not be gained at all in 1v1 situations (unless maybe you have the assassin's revenge attacks feat), since it was intended to be an anti-gank mechanic.

On top of this, unblockable attacks such as the Warlord's headbutt, Conquerer's shield bash, Lawbringer's shove, and Valkyrie's shield bash (the one that isn't charged) should NOT knock people to the ground in revenge mode, as they allow for a significant amount of free damage.

Any questions?

[Mjolnir1337]

Im surprised at the solution staring people in the face. I didnt read this thread 100% but here is the solution to Revenge:

Purple Gear should only give you ONE stat to Max, not "two stats" you can nearly max.


Normal Gear = gain 1 lose 1
Blue gear = gain 1 lose 1.

But Purple Gear? Gain 2 lose 1.

This makes no sense. It should follow the same pattern... Gain 1, lose 1 however the 1 you "gain" gets maxed...

What they should do, is go through ALL the purple gear, and remove the "second" stat benefit.


What happens?
Now you have to CHOOSE between:
Stamina/Attack on weapon.

CHOOSE between:
Revenge gain when taking damage, and Revenge attack.

CHOOSE between:
Revenge Defense and Gain on Defense.



Sure, people will still stack Revenge Attack and "gain on defense" BUT! They wont gain much revenge from being hit, and wont have much defense IN revenge...

Also people cant spam attacks with high damage on weapon. Youll either get high stam OR high attack....


If you merely make purple gear MAX just 1 stat, and not give any benefit to a second stat. you solve this problem ALSO it minimizes the gear gap. It ALSO gives you "potential" to add more gear later that (just an idea) removes the "loss of 1 stat" and merely gives a "gain 1 to max" benefit.

So now you fix the current problem AND give room for expansion.