Shielding is Too Safe for Fighting Game. | Forums

[lonemeditater]

This post is made under the assumption that the design philosophy of this game has the end goal of making it into a competitive fighting game, not necessarily a weapon combat simulator.

In most games, the purpose of a grab (which is what I'll be calling guardbreak in this post) is to punish people for relying too heavily on shielding. I've seen many people complain that people were able to chain grab them to death with the way it worked at launch. Many people share a viewpoint with articles such as the one found here:http://windowsreport.com/for-honor-guard-break-issues/.
This is actually not accurate. The reason that people felt like grab was uncounterable is because you used to have to predict it in order to break it. Now you can break it after it has landed. This means that any time you try to grab an opponent, they have a chance to counter the grab. This effectively make sitting in your guard 100% safe from all moves that don't have an unblockable characteristic to them.

So, what's the big deal? Just use unblockable moves to break guards instead of grabbing and you should be fine. The only problem is if you want to play a character that does not have such moves. Orochi is an example. If they want to initiate, they need to be able to punish people who just sit in their guard. When guard break was uncounterable, this meant that people could not rely on only guarding and parrying. The reason this was not broken is that in order to counter the grab all you had to do was any other type of heavy or light attack. The first time I went into a duel, I was chain grabbed to death by an orochi the first round, but I realized they were only spamming grab. So I decided to not block, instead countering their grabs with my light attacks. This meant that the enemy would have to do more than spam one button to win or just get rolled. They didn't change, so they got rolled. If you predict block you can grab. If you predict a grab you can attack. If you predict and attack you can guard/parry/deflect. This was not broken, it simply required you to adapt to each opponent rather than spam unblockable attacks that outrange your opponent's or wait for them to attack first.

If you feel like simply performing a light attack isn't enough of a way to deal with grabbing in the launch version then consider this: Counter guardbreaking was already a mechanic. The main difference between then and now is that now you don't have to predict and enemy's grab attempt to counter it. It was a more technical skill before, but it was still present. Grabs weren't broken. We had several tools to deal with them, it's just that the DEVs didn't leave enough time for people to learn to implement the tools that were already in place to deal with grabs.

Most of the other balance changes with the latest patch (1.03) are not game breaking for most classes, but this kind of change does majorly hurt characters like the Orochi, which used to be a high risk high reward character. Now it is a high risk low reward character. I eagerly wait for the way the DEVs deal with the new problems surrounding the new meta where we sit and our shields and wait for the other person to attack first. Please let me know your thoughts. I hope this was clear and a fair assessment.

[Mr_Gallows]

Well, I'd prefer more melee simulator than fighting game. Take simulator with a grain of salt though, but I'd prefer the broken fighting game elements to be fixed by removal.

[lonemeditater]

Well, I'd prefer more melee simulator than fighting game. Take simulator with a grain of salt though, but I'd prefer the broken fighting game elements to be fixed by removal.

I don't understand your reply. I wasn't asking whether or not it people would prefer a simulator. I was asking about what you think on reversing the guardbreak.
Also whether or not it was broken in the first place, and why.

[malazansapper]

guard break is broken. predicting will not fix anything. i have been grabbed while attacking hundreds of times, or grabbed after i grab, stopping my animation as if i did nothing at all. my guard break should have been broken not instantly reversed. it is so powerful a move now, more than half the players i fight use the "grab and stab" exclusively. grab -free hit, grab - free hit, repeat. it doesnt always work but it looks ridiculous and completely ruins the game for me. if a counter gb worked correctly every time, that would be a different story but even tiny bits of lag yours or theirs, make it useless unless you get lucky. blocking should help in a 3v1 but someone will always grab because you cannot counter a player youre not locked onto. shielding is not too powerful, grabbing is because it cannot be countered reliably. until gb counter is fixed the square button is the best move in the game for all characters and thats very boring.

[lonemeditater]

guard break is broken. predicting will not fix anything. i have been grabbed while attacking hundreds of times, or grabbed after i grab, stopping my animation as if i did nothing at all. my guard break should have been broken not instantly reversed. it is so powerful a move now, more than half the players i fight use the "grab and stab" exclusively. grab -free hit, grab - free hit, repeat. it doesnt always work but it looks ridiculous and completely ruins the game for me. if a counter gb worked correctly every time, that would be a different story but even tiny bits of lag yours or theirs, make it useless unless you get lucky. blocking should help in a 3v1 but someone will always grab because you cannot counter a player youre not locked onto. shielding is not too powerful, grabbing is because it cannot be countered reliably. until gb counter is fixed the square button is the best move in the game for all characters and thats very boring.

Have you even played the new patch? GB counter is so easy to do now that grabs aren't even viable to punish guard.

[malazansapper]

Have you even played the new patch? GB counter is so easy to do now that grabs aren't even viable to punish guard.

no i have not because only pc has gotten the patch. i am currently still on 1.02. the patch notes stated that only pc would be patched with consoles sure to follow at some point later.

[AKDagriZ]

I dont understand do you mean GB someone who is in full block ? like conqueror or valkyrie ?

Me i really dont like the fact that you can GB someone who is in full guard block.Other than that Gb is better now and with a lot of training you will be able to counter it at least 50% of the time

I think there is a big problem with valkyrie when she dodge back to go Full guard block you have to hit the GB button .But when you hit dodge + GB .The enemy still have the opportunity to GB you at the very same time you hit GB button to go full block

[Warp_11]

Old CGB was punishing people with fast reflexes and those who expected guardbreak. It gave a lot of frustrating moments when you were punished for knowing when the enemy uses guardbreak. A lot of peaople during closed tech test (it had simmilar counter guarbreak) and first weeks of release were complaining that the timing is very strange and doesn't make sense.
New (open beta) counter guardbreak seems much better and fair. Players now can't throw completely obvious guardbreaks and have a chance to succeed only because the opponent reacted too fast. I like it much better and see no sense in changing it back to it's broken state.

[Warp_11]

This post is made under the assumption that the design philosophy of this game has the end goal of making it into a competitive fighting game, not necessarily a weapon combat simulator.

In most games, the purpose of a grab (which is what I'll be calling guardbreak in this post) is to punish people for relying too heavily on shielding. I've seen many people complain that people were able to chain grab them to death with the way it worked at launch. Many people share a viewpoint with articles such as the one found here:http://windowsreport.com/for-honor-guard-break-issues/.
This is actually not accurate. The reason that people felt like grab was uncounterable is because you used to have to predict it in order to break it. Now you can break it after it has landed. This means that any time you try to grab an opponent, they have a chance to counter the grab. This effectively make sitting in your guard 100% safe from all moves that don't have an unblockable characteristic to them.

So, what's the big deal? Just use unblockable moves to break guards instead of grabbing and you should be fine. The only problem is if you want to play a character that does not have such moves. Orochi is an example. If they want to initiate, they need to be able to punish people who just sit in their guard. When guard break was uncounterable, this meant that people could not rely on only guarding and parrying. The reason this was not broken is that in order to counter the grab all you had to do was any other type of heavy or light attack. The first time I went into a duel, I was chain grabbed to death by an orochi the first round, but I realized they were only spamming grab. So I decided to not block, instead countering their grabs with my light attacks. This meant that the enemy would have to do more than spam one button to win or just get rolled. They didn't change, so they got rolled. If you predict block you can grab. If you predict a grab you can attack. If you predict and attack you can guard/parry/deflect. This was not broken, it simply required you to adapt to each opponent rather than spam unblockable attacks that outrange your opponent's or wait for them to attack first.

If you feel like simply performing a light attack isn't enough of a way to deal with grabbing in the launch version then consider this: Counter guardbreaking was already a mechanic. The main difference between then and now is that now you don't have to predict and enemy's grab attempt to counter it. It was a more technical skill before, but it was still present. Grabs weren't broken. We had several tools to deal with them, it's just that the DEVs didn't leave enough time for people to learn to implement the tools that were already in place to deal with grabs.

Most of the other balance changes with the latest patch (1.03) are not game breaking for most classes, but this kind of change does majorly hurt characters like the Orochi, which used to be a high risk high reward character. Now it is a high risk low reward character. I eagerly wait for the way the DEVs deal with the new problems surrounding the new meta where we sit and our shields and wait for the other person to attack first. Please let me know your thoughts. I hope this was clear and a fair assessment.

No, this is completely opposite: with 1.02 counter gb, if you predicted the guardbreak but reacted too fast (because you've been waiting for it), you would fail miserably. But if you didn't predict, the delayed CGB window of 1.02 gave your brain enough time to understand what happened and counter it.
Shieled characters are theb est right now not only because of their shields but also because of their very short recovery times (Conqueror can do a light attack after failed shield bash as fast as if he didn't fail the bash at all) and good abilities.

[TCTF_SWAT]

Have you even played the new patch? GB counter is so easy to do now that grabs aren't even viable to punish guard.

GB and teching have always been easy since the get go.....