Member
Now that the first balance update has been announced, at high level play (and in tournaments), the most viable characters will continue to be: Warden, Warlord, Conq & Shugoki.
Warden
The devs stated a long time ago that they wanted this character to be the easiest character to play, well they succeeded in that goal. This character has a lightning fast top attack as well as an even FASTER zone attack; both of which are BALANCED. The issue with the warden is that his Shoulder Charge Combo is too easy to pull off, whilst at the same time presenting little to no risk.
As a player facing the charge, this is what happens:
1) You get hit by the shoulder barge and the two subsequent attacks
2) You try to dodge away from the attack, but since the SC can be cancelled into a guard break by pressing x, you are then thrown back into the combo. By the way, less me make something clear; when a player is in a dodge animation, they CANNOT COUNTER GUARD BREAK.
3) When you are put back into the combo, you may then decide to use a light attack. Oh wait fine sir? Didn't you realise the Warden can cancel the charge so that he can parry your attack ONLY to put you back into the combo? And remember, you better not light attack from above, or you will suffer a crushing counter strike.
4) At this point, you might then think "Hey, maybe I should double dodge (to roll away). Wrong. When you do this, you sacrifice ALOT of stamina, which only result in the Warden chasing you down and (you guessed), putting you back into the "combo".
By now many you also understand that what I am describing is a "vortex", an easy tool in the game which allows Warden players to take over %50 of your HP with little to no risk to themselves. Ask yourselves this question; how many times have you fought against a Warden and realised that you have to work ALOT harder than him to win? You have haven't you? What does that tell you? What does that tell you about a character designated as "easy" in the selection menu?
Warlord
This guy, oh deary me. Can you believe it? After the nerf from the closed beta, the Warlord is STILL a top tier character. Why? Well, because he is the easiest class to use for cheesing (in other words, depending on environmental kills), he has an all shield, easy low risk confirm able damage, a spammable headbutt...do i really need to go on?
Lets start with the shield bash. This move requires a player to parry an attack which is then followed by pressing x. Now lets be honest, in ANY high level game, a player is going to hit at least ONE parry. Now why does this move make the Warlord OP? Firstly because he can shove you a ridiculous distance into a wall. Did you know the Nobushi, Raider & Lawbringer have slower guard change speeds than other characters? Why does that mean? That means (for example), if a Nobushi is shoved into a corner (and this is all off ONE parry by the way), that player is then put a mechanical disadvantage due to the Warlords fast side attacks. And to repeat, this is all off ONE parry.
You might then say "Well, maybe that Nobushi could use HS to kick the Warlord away or get in two fast light attacks". Well fine sir, do you headbutt? Funny joke I know (not really). The headbutt is so fast, that the Warlord could keep spamming this move into the Nobushi which is not only being disadvantaged on a mechanical level, but due to the mere fact that the head butt is STILL in it's current state.
This isn't even factoring in the Warlords all shield, which is also another low risk, high reward move. Think about, you see players pulling off these incredible set piece plays, feinting moves, playing mind games, only for the Warlord to put down an all shield that blocks attacks from all directions. In high level games, it is all about the small opening, in other words; chip damage. When a Warlord can turtle behind his shield, put it down (in all shield), press x and get a guarantee's light attack, does this seem fair to you?
You have to remember, at high level player, people are not going to play the "fun" way. They are not going to play the "exciting" way. They are going to play the "optimal" way. So a Warlord can effectively turn a parry into a stomp, can spam his head butt AND has a way for low risk, confirm able damage (this isn't even adding in the fact that a Warlord can also mix things up with a fast side heavy). Is it really okay that other characters have to put in so much more effort than the Warlord?
Many of us play the Warlord (especially in the closed beta), only to not play him in the main game. Why? Because if the devs choose to leave him how he is, he will be cemented as one of the best, if not THE best characters in the game due to the low risk, high reward nature of this character. Why use the unreliable HS when I can use the reliable all shield? Why play mind games with the Raider when I can spam the head butt. Why set up these epic feint plays with the Kensai when I can spam a vortex with little to no risk? Are you starting to get it now?
Conqueror
This section will not be as detailed as the other aforementioned characters, simply because at low levels of play, this character comes across as SEVERLY under powered. Why? Because many Conq players play the game the "fun" way, and go for un-necessary attacks that they did not need to make.
ALL a Conqueror needs to be effective is two things: The running shield charge and the shield bash. Now let's be honest; when you look at the majority of 1vs1 and 2vs2 maps, what is being encouraged? Cheese tactics. What do I mean by this? Simple, in essence, a lot of the maps were not designed for skilled sword play, but throwing people over ledges, into spikes, etc etc.
All of us have been knocked into some spikes at least once. Some of you may make the argument of bad positioning, and indeed, in some cases this is true. Unfortunately, in the vast amount of cases, players will either accidentally push you into an environmental hazard OR they will base their entire game play around abusing the environment instead of focusing on the SWORD PLAY. Can anyone really sit behind their monitors and tell me you would rather see people using environmental kills instead of using their weapons?Are people really going to argue that moving away from environmentally hazardous zones ONLY ends up placing you in an area with little to no room to manoeuvre / space attacks. Be honest, and you will find the answer.
As for the shield bash, look, this (yet again), goes back to the "optimal" way of playing the game. At high levels of play (and most definitely in tournaments), a Conq player is ONLY going to attack after successfully hitting a shield charge. What does this mean? That means that unlike other characters that need to finesse their moves in order to make an opening, the Conq simply needs to turtle up behind his shield (which also features an all shield mechanic by the way). And (yet again), this begs the question; why is it that this character, the Warlord, and Warden are so low risk compared to other heroes whilst at the same time present more value.
Shoguki
The ONLY problem with the Shoguki is this absolutely ridiculous back break move. Listen, If a player absolutely dominates a Shoguki, outplays him and gets him down to 10 hp, is it really okay that a Shoguki then has the chance to ONE SHOT KILL an opponent? Look, lets not delude ourselves into believing that this move is SO hard to pull off. This is high level play I am talking about, which means that there is the potential for a Shoguki to ward off another players attacks until eventually, they hit a guard break, throw the other player into some kind of environmental hazard, only then to charge them and one shot them.
There should be NO MOVE in this game that is rewarded by a ONE SHOT KILL. PERIOD. And remember, the Shoguki is not exactly a hard character to play, especially due to the nature of most of the maps in this game favouring a "cheese" play style. And yet again, I have to ask the question; Why is it that other character have to feint, trick, jive and dodge to set up plays whilst the Shoguki (which is straight forward to play), is significantly easier to play and at the same time offers high value?
----------------
For those of you who actually understand the game, you understand the message of this thread. Look at every tournament that has been run for this game so far, and tell the character in 3rd, 2nd and 1st place. Do you see a pattern? I sincerely hope you do.
Now before I post my suggestions for how to balance these heroes (and other aspects of the game), I would like for the community to have a DISCUSSION. Don't come here with the "git gud" mentality, this thread is for DISCUSSION not for trolling, so please, if this thread has been a good read, comment and join the discussion!
----------------
*EDIT*
Many people have asked me why the Peace Keeper is not on this list. The reason she was excluded is due to the fact that her ZA (zone attack), has a bugged indicator at the moment (although, this could also be working as intended but a response from the devs is required). Either way, although the PK may be extremely good against other characters (especially those with the slowest guard stance change speeds), the top 4 (especially the Warlord and Conq), can defeat her with their myriad of low skill / high reward tools.
----------------
*EDIT 2*
Here is a link to another great thread: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...work-the-Top-4
----------------
*EDIT 3*
An interesting read about the devs response to For Honor: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-big-questions
Member
The Warden has a really small advantage when the defending player alternates between rolling out and smacking him and is actually at a disadvantage when he's trying to mixup a Peacekeeper. The only problem is the fact that this option is available exclusively to dodge-attack characters - if you try a standard attack, you're probably going to get hit anyway.Originally Posted by oSpooner Go to original post
Warden would be fine if his dodge attack was slightly slower, allowing everyone to stop his follow-up with a light/ZA. Right now it's almost a real vortex against some characters and a really stupid move against assassins and Kensei.
Also, it's kind of funny that you're focusing so much on the old stuff when we've recently had a small breakthrough in the competitive meta with the discovery of kara-cancels and moves that are guaranteed after unlocking. At this point pretty much everything should be re-tested and re-evaluated with new tech in mind.
Member
Senior Member
What are your thoughts o this move?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp26Ux1wfWs
Member
Senior Member
Member
Well summarized. I second the notion.. these 4 are broken, as described.
Tangent, thinking out loud... perhaps this is just my opinion... The 50/50's out of guard stance are ridiculous. Running in circles out of combat to gb option should be taken out, for all classes. It makes the game play very stupid.
Member
People keep bashing the Warlord for being OP, but honesty, I find other characters waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more annoying and hard to beat. Granted I "main" Warlord while I'm waiting for the Lawbringer to be fixed, but even if I play other characters (doing orders and stuff) I'm far from feeling like "oh **** a Warlord I'm doomed" when I see one. No to mention that they're relatively rare to see (which alone questions them being OP), so yeah, I find PK (which just got buffed, yay...) Noobushi and a good Berserker is way more dangerous than a Warlord.
Senior Member
I have encountered, as a PK Main, those players mentioned in the OP. There is little to no chance of winning vs a good player who abuses the mentioned tactics. Well, I found a counter for the Shoguki, but not vs the others. On facing a Shoguki I have to play reaaally passive with my PK, only Dodge+Heavy into bleed is my way to win this.Originally Posted by PRAETORlAN Go to original post
The other 3 just run at me and yeah, do what is described here. My "overpowered, lightning fast" light attacks do not help against these tactics if they are executed perfectly.
Member
The problem here is that people keep talking past each other a lot in the balance topics.Originally Posted by PRAETORlAN Go to original post
The "high level" folks don't care if a character is hard to play, only how much you can get out of it - and they point to those four characters as too strong.
On the other hand there is the people that play more casual (and there is nothing wrong with that) - how easy a character is to play actually matter is this group, and they don't really care about the high level stuff, as they will never spend enoght time to learn them. They want to have fun, not play in tournaments.
The second group, casuals, is majority of players and that's why you don't see many Warlords out there - a low skill Warlord player has no chance agains a low level Orochi/Berserker/PK player, as assassins are way, waaay easier to play. The balancing problem here is that both groups, pros and casuals, seem to have valid complains. Assassins are broken on low level, and make the game much less enjoyable for a lot of players - dodge spam feels broken and unfair if you don't know how to handle it. That's way they dominate the meta - the easiest way to fight an assassin is with a assassin, so a lot of people will just switch from harder characters to easeier ones. And that works.
On the other hand, the pros would argue that assassins on high skill level are not good at all, and that might be true - I am not really good enought to say. They want nerfs to characters that are already hard to play and rarely seen in casual matches.
Taking all this into consideration - how do you balance that? How do you for example balance a PK for the character not to dominate new players wit hlight attack spam, but still be viable on high level? And no, "git gud" is not an argument. Most of the players of any game will always be on the lower skill end, you have to pay attention to them, you can't just build a high wall called to enter and hope the game will survive. Than again, you don't really want to hurt the high level play.
Balancing is no easy task.
