1. #1

    Fix for the defensive meta @ high level

    I think I found a simple way to fix the defensive meta at high level without changing the mechanics of the game. That being said a patch that balances characters and address the server issues is still needed.

    Make counter guard break use up more stamina than a guard break attempt.

    What this does is force a defensive opponent to attack when he keeps getting harassed by guard breaks, otherwise countering guard breaks will lead the defensive opponent getting out of stamina leaving him vulnerable. Attacking would become the best alternative at countering guard breaks instead of passively waiting for the counter to reset the fight.
    It's a fairly simple fix that also does not hinder the low and mid tier player base.
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  2. #2
    Originally Posted by Turric4n666 Go to original post
    This will lead to people disengage after the second block and waiting for their stamina to refill.
    Thats a very valid concern, and i though about it, to disengage a fight you have to dodge back which leaves you open for a guard break, rolling would also eat away your stamina.
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  3. #3
    TCTF_SWAT's Avatar Senior Member
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    What about making stamina have a slight delay before starting to regen similar to how conqs and warlords full block stance works or how health regen works.
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  4. #4
    See, in the current state of the game, parrying becomes a problem when your opponent is fishing for a parry when being defensive and reactive, hence the defensive player is safe because he doesnt have to attack and risk getting parried himself. Which there lies the problem. The goal is to force both player to be more offensive to both have parries opportunity. So the goal is to force both player to keep an aggressive pace to exchange blows.

    To do so, you need a pressuring tool that isnt punishable by reaction. GB would now be a pressuring tool. A defensive opponent using only GB counters pressured by GB spam would lose his stamina which would after a few GB counters leave him vulnerable with a grey stamina bar. On the other hand GB spam wouldnt be viable either because you leave yourself open for attacks while attempting to GB. So in response to multiple GB, you would have to retaliate with an offensive move to then make some space between you and your opponent to get your stamina back.
    Also GBs have less range than attacks so it would be unsafe to GB as soon as you would be in GB range because you get in attack range 1rst.

    I want to make this clear, even if this suggestion implies modifying stamina on GB it does not mean that the problems lies with GB or that it would change how GB works. GB and counter GB would basically stay the same the only difference is that c.ounter GB would cost more stamina
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  5. #5
    Punishing a player for saving their own *** from a world of hurt when it requires precise timing to do so? He'll, no.
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  6. #6
    Remove revenge and problem is fixed
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by spawn10459 Go to original post
    Remove revenge and problem is fixed
    So what would you replace revenge with? Because without it or something like it, anything more than a 1v1 is basically an automatic loss for those who are outnumbered.
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  8. #8
    Originally Posted by JeeNiNe Go to original post
    I think I found a simple way to fix the defensive meta at high level without changing the mechanics of the game. That being said a patch that balances characters and address the server issues is still needed.

    Make counter guard break use up more stamina than a guard break attempt.

    What this does is force a defensive opponent to attack when he keeps getting harassed by guard breaks, otherwise countering guard breaks will lead the defensive opponent getting out of stamina leaving him vulnerable. Attacking would become the best alternative at countering guard breaks instead of passively waiting for the counter to reset the fight.
    It's a fairly simple fix that also does not hinder the low and mid tier player base.
    I think this is a smart solution. As much as I hate guardbreaks and being guardbroken, it is the only tool usable against an opponent who does nothing but block and parry. Unfortunately it is useless against someone who can consistently counter. This would not only make guardbreak useful in all situations, but also pressure defensive players to be aggressive when an enemy gets close enough to gb them and force them to counter and spend a lot of stamina. I think this is exactly what the guardbreak was originally intended to do: break your defense.

    My only criticism to this solution is that I still think that guardbreaks are already too powerful in that they give way to throws that can end a fight with a couple button presses regardless of health. I think that a guardbroken player should have an additional chance to counter if a throw is attempted.

    I'm totally in favor of this solution though because the way I play, I try to avoid being guardbroken at all since I'm not reliable with the counter. That means with some opponents I have to be very aggressive and with others I have to be careful of the parry to guaranteed guardbreak. I also think this solution is very helpful for lawbringers who are hurt right now because they rely so heavily on their gb combo but it's so predictable that even I can counter it consistently. However a predictable guardbreak that forces a counter which costs stamina would actually play very well into their role as a disabler.
     2 people found this helpful
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  9. #9
    Originally Posted by JeeNiNe Go to original post
    I think I found a simple way to fix the defensive meta at high level without changing the mechanics of the game. That being said a patch that balances characters and address the server issues is still needed.

    Make counter guard break use up more stamina than a guard break attempt.

    What this does is force a defensive opponent to attack when he keeps getting harassed by guard breaks, otherwise countering guard breaks will lead the defensive opponent getting out of stamina leaving him vulnerable. Attacking would become the best alternative at countering guard breaks instead of passively waiting for the counter to reset the fight.
    It's a fairly simple fix that also does not hinder the low and mid tier player base.
    Uh.......no. I think this is a terrible idea. In theory it sounds good because it brings a turtle out of his shell. But think about how bad it'll be offensively.
    People will spam GB after lights even more then they do now because it actually HURTS the other play to try and counter it. And what about when they get into a shoving match with GB? The attacker auto-wins because the defender will run out of stamina before they do. Not to mention that GB catches on evasion so the only way to counter the spam is to spam lights and get parried or roll away and burn up a large portion of stamina.

    And what about exhaustion? How will it work there? It'll either eat up stamina, thus screwing you over because you'll either get GB'd and lose stamina, or you counter GB and lose stamina, or you won't be able to Counter GB while in exhaustion. The game will devolve into a new meta of running your opponent out of stamina because exhaustion will guarantee a win. No thank you.
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  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Eirmund Go to original post
    Uh.......no. I think this is a terrible idea. In theory it sounds good because it brings a turtle out of his shell. But think about how bad it'll be offensively.
    People will spam GB after lights even more then they do now because it actually HURTS the other play to try and counter it. And what about when they get into a shoving match with GB? The attacker auto-wins because the defender will run out of stamina before they do. Not to mention that GB catches on evasion so the only way to counter the spam is to spam lights and get parried or roll away and burn up a large portion of stamina.

    And what about exhaustion? How will it work there? It'll either eat up stamina, thus screwing you over because you'll either get GB'd and lose stamina, or you counter GB and lose stamina, or you won't be able to Counter GB while in exhaustion. The game will devolve into a new meta of running your opponent out of stamina because exhaustion will guarantee a win. No thank you.
    The thing is exhaustion doesn't actually guarantee a win. You can still defend just as well when you're out of stamina. You can still counter guardbreaks, you can still dodge, you can still block, you can still parry. You only attack really slowly and you can't sprint. This solution doesn't really put a good defender at too much risk, it only prevents a strictly defensive player from being able to punish an aggressive player so effectively.

    The objective in fights would then be to kill or be killed, as it probably should be. There would definitely be a shove meta developing but it would easily be countered by simply being more aggressive. The point is that if you let your opponent guard break you, you are taking some punishment either in the form of damage to your health or to your stamina. Therefore, do not get guardbroken! However, an opponent that is constantly reaching for a guardbreak gets torn apart by someone who is playing aggressively.

    As a result, fights would end quicker. You would be less likely to find yourself outnumbered because you wouldn't have to spend 2 minutes or more waiting for someone to make the first move. But if you really like playing defensively, you would still be able to in some situations. You would just have to mix in a few light attacks in order to prevent them from getting close enough to guardbreak you.
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