How to fix the turtling meta | Forums

[Mr_Gallows]

Making the balance tilt towards being more offensive won't solve anything and just lead to other problems.

The issue is very simple. Defence can directly cause damage.

Defence needs to be defence and offence only will do damage. Defence should be able to shift initiative, so there is a window to go on the offensive. But turtling should not cause damage. It should however not be nerfed either, as bad defence will also be a problem. But defence causing damage is a disaster.

Blocking heavy attack is a pointless feature, because it is so easy. Blocking needs to be tweaked so you can have a good defence if you put in the effort, but not like it is now. We can solve both the turtling meta, the light attack spam and the almost useless heavy attack (yes heavy attacks work when you have a free attack, but that's all).

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...e-of-For-Honor

[THEPH0NECOMPANY]

My issue with the game is that the rock paper scissors system is flawed currently defense is too strong
Parrying is the problem, currently you generally get a health punishment for parry, it breaks the system it's the rock that becomes scissors to cut paper

Remove the health punishment and then balance out the stamina debuff for it, it should completely shut down offence...
Games would become a back and forth tug of war at high levels instead of a circling simulator

After this they would definitely have to rebalance parts of the game but until they fix parry health punishment it's a flawed but fun game

[Azrakel2]

Making the balance tilt towards being more offensive won't solve anything and just lead to other problems.

The issue is very simple. Defence can directly cause damage.

Defence needs to be defence and offence only will do damage. Defence should be able to shift initiative, so there is a window to go on the offensive. But turtling should not cause damage. It should however not be nerfed either, as bad defence will also be a problem. But defence causing damage is a disaster.

Blocking heavy attack is a pointless feature, because it is so easy. Blocking needs to be tweaked so you can have a good defence if you put in the effort, but not like it is now. We can solve both the turtling meta, the light attack spam and the almost useless heavy attack (yes heavy attacks work when you have a free attack, but that's all).

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...e-of-For-Honor

The Point is not about making the balance switch to offense. offense and defense are both needed equaly on the playing field. My point as stated in my earlier posts is defense is to automated. I say that for the following reasons.

1. guard stance is mainly that to show what stance your in it shows what side you have protected. secondly it shows what side your attacks will be coming from. plus the fact you can switch stance to fake out your opponent during combos

so where does that bring me to exactly with defense. go into a custom match with a friend. and just swing away at him while your both in the same stance. have him not even have a hand on the controller. you will see his character will automatically block because he is in the same stance. Even assassin class characters Automaticaly block so long as your in the same guard stance. That brings me next to parrying.

Open Beta Parrying was much different as well as basic blocking. you had to manualy block buy moving the thumbstick or the a or d keys (computer variant of the game) in the direction of the incoming attack. you had to manualy block. again point being guard stance was to show only what stance your in. back to the parrying same had to be done for parrys. again had to hold thumbstick in direction of attack and then hit heavy attack. my point being defense is to automated. parrys to simple parrys should work like deflects. blocks should require manual input to block aka moving thumbstick in the direction of the attack. In Closing defense needs to be less automated. buy making it less automated. The game will be brought to a level playing field and will be about player skill vs player skill

[Maaci]

I honestly have to disagree with these suggestions as that's not the problem with defense in the game currently. as stated the problem with defense is its to simple to easy to pull off. 90 percent of the time for all classes even assassin classes defense for the most part is automated. want to find out go make a custom match invite a friend to practice. Have him be in the same guard stance for all attacks. and just swing at him. youl find his blocks are automated. that's correct basic blocks are automated. Within the open beta basic blocking was not automated. you had to manualy block if u didn't you still got hit regaurdless of the type of attack. Secondly parrys Parrys were not a one button feature to pull off. they were excuted in the same manor as a deflect. Difference being you didn't have to wait till impact to excute a parry. Within the open beta to excute a parry you had to hold the thumbstick in the direction of the attack then hit heavy attack. In the game live all you need to do is be in the same guard stance and hit the right trigger. My point being defense is to automatic in the live version of the game. want to see a true fix for the game read my above post

If i want to find out? I found it out after 10h of gameplay. Thats how fast i saw that.

In live game combos are none-existent and heavy attacks are a highrisk-low award move. Attacking is discouraged.
If combos were available which i suggested, it would make defending harder initself.

For your parry suggestion, i truly think people would master it eventually. And i still HATE the defend->freedamage type of gamedesign. It needs to change.

Combos and classes could be tweaked further after this to make defending even harder.


The best block suggestion i have seen is mr_gallowz. You need more precise blocking to fully block a heavy attack. I kinda like that.

[nyrue]

If i want to find out? I found it out after 10h of gameplay. Thats how fast i saw that.

In live game combos are none-existent and heavy attacks are a highrisk-low award move. Attacking is discouraged.
If combos were available which i suggested, it would make defending harder initself.

For your parry suggestion, i truly think people would master it eventually. And i still HATE the defend->freedamage type of gamedesign. It needs to change.

Combos and classes could be tweaked further after this to make defending even harder.


The best block suggestion i have seen is mr_gallowz. You need more precise blocking to fully block a heavy attack. I kinda like that.

I have read mr gallows thread and seen him promoting it in many different threads and I think its a bad idea, i'm not trying to put anyone down i'm just casting a vote for no, its too elaborate and there are much simpler solutions than changing a core mechanic like this,

for instance removing the full deadzone on analog, or normalizing block stance change times

this wouldn't make heavy attacks harder to block but it would put them on par with light attacks

[Maaci]

I have read mr gallows thread and seen him promoting it in many different threads and I think its a bad idea, i'm not trying to put anyone down i'm just casting a vote for no, its too elaborate and there are much simpler solutions than changing a core mechanic like this,

for instance removing the full deadzone on analog, or normalizing block stance change times

this wouldn't make heavy attacks harder to block but it would put them on par with light attacks

I appreaciate your feedback, makes it possible to discuss it.

When you say "on par with light attacks", do you mean blocking light and heavy attacks would become to similar in how you do it?

[Mr_Gallows]

The Point is not about making the balance switch to offense. offense and defense are both needed equaly on the playing field. My point as stated in my earlier posts is defense is to automated. I say that for the following reasons.

1. guard stance is mainly that to show what stance your in it shows what side you have protected. secondly it shows what side your attacks will be coming from. plus the fact you can switch stance to fake out your opponent during combos

so where does that bring me to exactly with defense. go into a custom match with a friend. and just swing away at him while your both in the same stance. have him not even have a hand on the controller. you will see his character will automatically block because he is in the same stance. Even assassin class characters Automaticaly block so long as your in the same guard stance. That brings me next to parrying.

Open Beta Parrying was much different as well as basic blocking. you had to manualy block buy moving the thumbstick or the a or d keys (computer variant of the game) in the direction of the incoming attack. you had to manualy block. again point being guard stance was to show only what stance your in. back to the parrying same had to be done for parrys. again had to hold thumbstick in direction of attack and then hit heavy attack. my point being defense is to automated. parrys to simple parrys should work like deflects. blocks should require manual input to block aka moving thumbstick in the direction of the attack. In Closing defense needs to be less automated. buy making it less automated. The game will be brought to a level playing field and will be about player skill vs player skill

Yes I get what you mean now. Cheers for taking the time to explain it again.

I have played since Alpha and apart from assassins it's always been so that you blocked of your guard was in the right position, no matter what you did with the controller. I did not test it to be honest, but I cannot imagine it worked any different than now in that regard.

That aside, I am with you in terms of the passive blocking being silly and doesn't do anything good for the game. From a realistic patch perspective however, they would have to change a lot to remove the automatic blocking. I would like to see a blocking system that was more timing based, but don't think it's realistic for a patch. It's not a huge issue anyway, because most people will not strike directly at an opponents block, so it will almost always be a case of the defender having to shift his guard. It is that shift we can work with.

I would love to see less automated defence like you suggest, but unfortunately, I don't think it can be done within the framework of the current game.

My suggestion however is to adress what can be changed and what will balance block for all classes even assassins. The shifting of the guard. If the input lag of blocking is fixed, then light attack blocking will have a decent demand for timing. Heavy attacks however will be even easier to block. The easiest way to handle it without making major change to the game is to split blocking into two parts. Half block and full block. Once you hit a direction, you are instantly in half block and can block light attacks. Then the direction indicator will fill up quickly and light up - full block. Heavy attacks can now be blocked. This balances heavy and light attack and gives developers another button to turn in terms of balance. They can now change different classes to have a harder time against heavy attacks if they find it good for balance. It will be a good balance tool.

With that in place parry, GB and dodge can also be tweaked to achieve the goal of making defence purely defensive. You will not be able to do damage directly from defence, but will have to attack. Dodge and parry can be used to take initiative, break combos etc. But not to do damage by turtling.

It's not a huge change to the game, but it will allow for Patching of several things making the game dull at higher levels of play.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...e-of-For-Honor