How to fix the turtling meta | Forums

[Casper5632]

Honestly the interface gives us too much information. Its too easy to parry, dodge, and counter guard break when a giant red marker flashes to tell us when to do it. Hopefully ranked play will be realistic mode required when it comes out.

[Mr_Gallows]

Realistic mode is a mess with different classes having very different level of telegraphing. Realistic mode is broken.

The main problem is that defence is too easy, especially against heavy attacks and on top of that - defence leads directly to damage. In fact for many classes defence is the easiest way to kill your opponent.

To adress this issue, block must be fixed, so it is balanced with both light and heavy attack. This is impossible with the current blocking system, but there is an easy fix. Two levels of block, just like two levels of attacks. Then defence needs to be effective, but not a source of damage - only a way of shifting initiative through parry and deflect.

Thread here about it: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...2#post12367152

[Rogue of Time]

I've lately followed the forums and the official subreddit a lot and, like many others, have come to the conclusion that defensive play in this game is too strong. Being offensive, on the other hand, is just too risky and punishable. This defensive meta is ultimately quite tedious both to play and watch.

I've found that there are three main issues:

1. Being overly defensive, or "turtling", is relatively easy to do and extremely hard to punish.
2. Parrying is too strong and makes being offensive very risky.
3. Being out of stamina is too hard to punish. I'm sure many of you have found yourselves in the situation where your opponent is out of stamina, but you just can't seem to find a way to do anything to punish him. This problem becomes really apparent with heroes who revolve around draining the opponent's stamina, e.g. Lawbringer.

I strongly believe that shifting the meta to a more aggressive style will make the gameplay a lot more interesting and also open up more variety.

Here are my ideas on how to fix the problems:
Disclaimer: I'm balancing around 1v1 and 2v2, as I think the game should be balanced around these game modes.

1. Blocking should cost as much stamina as attacking did. Parrying should cost half as much. In addition to these, blocking a heavy attack should inflict 50% of the normal damage (except to Conqueror). These changes will punish players for being too defensive and therefore promote some offensive play.
2. I think we can all agree that parrying is quite easy and getting a guaranteed GB from it (to most heroes) is a bit too strong. Therefore I suggest that you no longer get a guaranteed GB, or heavy, from parrying a light attack. Instead, you'd only get a guaranteed light attack. This will ensure that being a bit offensive with light attacks can't be punished too hard.
3. The root of this problem is that you still have all of your defensive capabilities when out of stamina. To balance this, we need to remove some of them for the duration:
   
   • Make dodges slower and cover less distance. Also, you shouldn't be able to roll.
   • Remove the ability to parry.
   
   These changes would ensure that you'd likely get at least one hit in, which is how I think it should be. Some might argue that these changes would be too drastic, but remember that running out of stamina is a big mistake from the player and should be punished. Not being able to parry would also buff Raider, which is a good thing.

Those are all the suggestions. Feel free to share your opinions!

EDIT: I just want to point out that these changes would not make it impossible to defend against all attacks. They would only make it harder, while reducing the amount of "free" damage you get from turtling. The goal is to make offensive play less risky and more worthwhile.

I heavily disagree with the "make things more offensive". It would just make characters like Berserker, Peacekeeper, Orochi, and Warden even stronger than they are already. Parrying is very strong, yes, but it is hard-countered by Feinting. I cannot begin to tell how many times I've had a Kensei doing their unblockable overhead swing just to Feint it into a side hit. I'm trying to wait patiently for that overhead swing so I can Parry and then get a free Light attack in and then BOOM - I'm trying to pull a katana out of my side. So Parrying is not "too strong". People just don't use Feint properly.

Being out of stamina is definitely hard to punish, I agree with that. I think your idea of making dodges slower and cover less distance is not a good idea, however. A longer recovery time at the end of the animation would still be good - this would allow a character to effectively dodge a heavy attack, but they would be susceptible to follow ups. If they were dodging a light attack, they would be vulnerable to a follow-up light attack because of the longer recovery animation. Removing the ability to Parry is stupid as the person with stamina depleted cannot capitalize on stumbling their opponent. Once again, it is hard-countered by Feinting and the person who tried to Parry (and is now doing a REALLY SLOW heavy attack since they're depleted) is now super vulnerable to punishment. To follow-up on your second fix, parrying a light attack is easy, yes. However, this falls into predictability. If a character constantly leads with light attacks, then yes, they're going to get parried all the time. However, if a character starts a combo string that leads with Heavy after the last four started with Light it can throw someone off, or it could be feinted into a Light attack from another Guard. It just seems like you don't know how to feint, which is honestly Ubisoft's fault since it mentions Feinting in the Basic Videos and Advanced Videos for some characters but very rarely explains how to do it, it's not listed in the Tutorial, and it's not listed in "Moveset". So I feel they should create more awareness of this mechanic since it's so core to countering Parry.

The "blocking costs a portion of your health" is also a terrible idea. Blocking generally happens because the person feels too worried to Parry but they can't find an opening to attack themselves, often times because the person is in the middle of a long string of attacks that the defending player can't get out of. Take the Berserker for example: they have an infinite chain that doesn't cost a lot of stamina (especially with Dauntless active) and if they do a chunk of the defender's health then the defender essentially can't fight back. I don't feel that blocking is an issue. With Guard Break, Unblockables, and the fact that it's an aimed Block (except for Full Guard) it's not really a "cheap" way to win, and is core to the For Honor experience. Making blocking a punished practice would just make this a generic Hack'n'slash, and it would quickly deteriorate to Assassins vs. Assassins constantly since Blocking would not be worth it anyway.

[Mewsan]

I heavily disagree with the "make things more offensive". It would just make characters like Berserker, Peacekeeper, Orochi, and Warden even stronger than they are already. Parrying is very strong, yes, but it is hard-countered by Feinting. I cannot begin to tell how many times I've had a Kensei doing their unblockable overhead swing just to Feint it into a side hit. I'm trying to wait patiently for that overhead swing so I can Parry and then get a free Light attack in and then BOOM - I'm trying to pull a katana out of my side. So Parrying is not "too strong". People just don't use Feint properly.

Only Warden is very strong out of those characters and only because he has tools to break the turtling meta. Still, Warlord is as strong as he is. Either way, the current meta is very dull to play. Feinting definitely doesn't hard counter parrying. You can feint your parry attempt or, if you're Valkyrie or Nobushi, just let it slide, because you can't be GB'd after a parry anyway. Also, good players will know to anticipate the feint and only parry when the attack can't be feinted anymore. The Kensei trick is very easy to counter.

Being out of stamina is definitely hard to punish, I agree with that. I think your idea of making dodges slower and cover less distance is not a good idea, however. A longer recovery time at the end of the animation would still be good - this would allow a character to effectively dodge a heavy attack, but they would be susceptible to follow ups. If they were dodging a light attack, they would be vulnerable to a follow-up light attack because of the longer recovery animation. Removing the ability to Parry is stupid as the person with stamina depleted cannot capitalize on stumbling their opponent. Once again, it is hard-countered by Feinting and the person who tried to Parry (and is now doing a REALLY SLOW heavy attack since they're depleted) is now super vulnerable to punishment.

Again, feinting is not a hard counter to parry. Good players WILL NOT attempt to parry when out of stamina. Making the dodge slower wouldn't make it impossible to dodge attacks, only harder. The increased recovery time might be a good idea, though.

To follow-up on your second fix, parrying a light attack is easy, yes. However, this falls into predictability. If a character constantly leads with light attacks, then yes, they're going to get parried all the time. However, if a character starts a combo string that leads with Heavy after the last four started with Light it can throw someone off, or it could be feinted into a Light attack from another Guard. It just seems like you don't know how to feint, which is honestly Ubisoft's fault since it mentions Feinting in the Basic Videos and Advanced Videos for some characters but very rarely explains how to do it, it's not listed in the Tutorial, and it's not listed in "Moveset". So I feel they should create more awareness of this mechanic since it's so core to countering Parry.

Once again, feint is not a hard counter to parry. Also, seems you didn't understand that I only wanted to remove the guaranteed GB from parrying a light attack, which can't be feinted anyway.

The "blocking costs a portion of your health" is also a terrible idea. Blocking generally happens because the person feels too worried to Parry but they can't find an opening to attack themselves, often times because the person is in the middle of a long string of attacks that the defending player can't get out of. Take the Berserker for example: they have an infinite chain that doesn't cost a lot of stamina (especially with Dauntless active) and if they do a chunk of the defender's health then the defender essentially can't fight back. I don't feel that blocking is an issue. With Guard Break, Unblockables, and the fact that it's an aimed Block (except for Full Guard) it's not really a "cheap" way to win, and is core to the For Honor experience. Making blocking a punished practice would just make this a generic Hack'n'slash, and it would quickly deteriorate to Assassins vs. Assassins constantly since Blocking would not be worth it anyway.

You missed that the chip damage would only apply to heavy attacks, not light. I do agree that the increased chip damage isn't completely necessary, but I would still like to see it implemented to encourage more active defense against heavy attacks.

[Cassain]

You have good suggestions, some of which are quite similar to mine. I'd argue, though, that my suggestions wouldn't change just one or two mechanics. They would change all the mechanics in defensive play that I personally find somewhat broken.

I don't necessarily agree that there's anything wrong with GB/tech, but won't disagree either. Also, I think that getting a GB from parrying a heavy is fine. Combined with my suggestions, it would keep the risk-reward ratio of heavy attacks pretty balanced.

I think many mechanics have to be changed for it to be balanced completely but not a full overhaul the defense system as is, is okay, not amazing, but just okay. The GB/Tech is fine because if there was no tech you would have an epidemic of GB spammers. The free GB after parry is fine because it is very easy to avoid getting parried if you don't spam heavies and mix up your stances (Faster attacks help and so does feinting). Defense overall is not bad its the "unavoidable" full block stance, block every attack gig. I think to get rid of turtling you need for every hero to have an opening unblockable attack (lawbringer push, conq bash, warlord headbutt, warden bash, nobushi kick, Valkyrie bash, The assassins get deflects so thats a good thing for people who actually attack and they have fast attacks quick enough to not be able to be reacted to,kensei whiff top heavy cancel mix-up) many different ways to open up an opponent, just some are easier than others and that comes down to learning your match ups and opponent's head

[Maaci]

Every buff to offense is a nerf to defense and vice versa. I don't think you quite understand either how the game works at a deep level or the implications of my suggestions. I fully realize that the point of the post that I quoted was that defense has too much kill potential. My suggestions would reduce this kill potential and also buff offense by making it less risky. Nerfing the purely defensive aspects the way I described would also make offense more compelling and create more openings.

In conclusion, my primary goal is to buff offense by nerfing defense. Secondary goal is to fix the broken aspects of defense.

I read wrong suggestions, didnt realise you were OP.
But yeah, i do actually dislike your suggestions and here is why

Nice attempt to dismiss my experience btw without hearing like literally nothing from me.

Nothing of those suggestions fixes the core of the issue. Right now you look at each other and no one can break the defence of the other, while defending would still be to easy when you have stamina. Just block everything - Opponent cant do anything about it until you run out of stamina, and what will change then is that the attacker will simple use heavy attacks for free damage since the defender wont be able to parry. How is this fun and deep? Its not in my mind.

There will simple become "Make defender run out of stamina and hopefully you will have stamina left to do some free damage with heavy attacks". And that would only work if dodges were tweaked so its not to easy to dodge.


The defense-offense needs a much better balance.
I would start off by making combos available, while also heavy attacks. Blocking should not interrupt attacks any longer.
Parrying should change to something else such as switching the initiative purely, no free damage.

Doing heavy attacks would now mean you wont get damaged while doing them.

Combos would make the defender actually have to defend with more skill. Combos could get even more further specialised for each class while also make them have more variation.
Defending not so easy any longer. And attacking would be more fun aswell. Attacking in the current game is not fun.

Then we look at dodging and feinting and perhaps make those more class specific as well. Then we have the defending side which could be looked at for the defensive classes or others.

Overall, this is a good start and then just go from there.

[RahnuLe]

I find any claims that nerfing defense would just make X classes OP to be pretty nonsensical. Class balance issues are a separate matter from the base game mechanics and they need to be balanced around those mechanics after the fact. You can't balance the classes until you have your foundation in place to begin with, and the current foundations are shaky as hell.

[Azrakel2]

QUOTE=x--SilenceR--x;12371323]Blocking should take 4% of your life that way people can not just turtle problem solved![/QUOTE]

Blocking shouldn't take 4% of health its there for a reason the problem is stamina drains countless times ive gone up against law bringers and found myself in a corner where there unblockables drain stamina. Sure I can understand missed attacks. sprinting. and parrying draining stamina. Fact of the matter is the stamina penalties are the problem. espicialy against law bringings to the point where you cant dodge. or even attack and they just take advantage of the situation ( granted that's the idea) but a suggested fix for that fix recovery times the stun times seem out of wack to be able to even fight effectively against a law bringinger. espicialy when most of them just feint and feint and feint to the point they can take advantage of it

[Azrakel2]

Nerfing defense wouldent make x classes OP its about balance. and making the game player skill based. I.E. Example to pull off a deflect you have to hold the left thumbstick in the direction of an incoming attack correct? why shouldn't it be the same for parrys. within the open beta you had to hold the thumbstick in the direction of an incoming attack to do a basic block. Current version of the game. all you need to be is in the same guard and it auto blocks. ive seen it first hand buy my own character and buy opponent players. Parrys don't tell me parrys areant easy to pull off all you have to be is in the same guard stance as opponents and pull the right trigger. a baby could do that ( keep in mind I play on xbox one) ( the controls for the other systems may be different but I'm sure you know what buttons I'm referring to)

My suggestion first and formost lets make this game based on player skill. to do this. my suggestions are as follows

1. Remove auto blocking. I belive to block a player must not only be in the same guard stance but also needs to move the thumbstick ( playstation and xbox controls) and the arrow keys in the direction of an incoming attack. this in turn makes the player hve to manualy block. is it more work yes whats it bring the game down to player skill

2. Parrying not only does the player have to be in the same guard stance as the opponent player but again needs to hold the thumbstick in the direction of an incoming attack and then press the heavy attack button.

3. deflects don't realy need a change. other then perhaps open the window frame of timeing the deflect to about 3 seconds.

In Closing theres your problem with defense. and theres your suggested fixes. buy making the player have to manualy block and parry like you would a deflect it should bring the game down to about player skill and further bring balance to the game

[Azrakel2]

I read wrong suggestions, didnt realise you were OP.
But yeah, i do actually dislike your suggestions and here is why

Nice attempt to dismiss my experience btw without hearing like literally nothing from me.

Nothing of those suggestions fixes the core of the issue. Right now you look at each other and no one can break the defence of the other, while defending would still be to easy when you have stamina. Just block everything - Opponent cant do anything about it until you run out of stamina, and what will change then is that the attacker will simple use heavy attacks for free damage since the defender wont be able to parry. How is this fun and deep? Its not in my mind.

There will simple become "Make defender run out of stamina and hopefully you will have stamina left to do some free damage with heavy attacks". And that would only work if dodges were tweaked so its not to easy to dodge.


The defense-offense needs a much better balance.
I would start off by making combos available, while also heavy attacks. Blocking should not interrupt attacks any longer.
Parrying should change to something else such as switching the initiative purely, no free damage.

Doing heavy attacks would now mean you wont get damaged while doing them.

Combos would make the defender actually have to defend with more skill. Combos could get even more further specialised for each class while also make them have more variation.
Defending not so easy any longer. And attacking would be more fun aswell. Attacking in the current game is not fun.

Then we look at dodging and feinting and perhaps make those more class specific as well. Then we have the defending side which could be looked at for the defensive classes or others.

Overall, this is a good start and then just go from there.

I honestly have to disagree with these suggestions as that's not the problem with defense in the game currently. as stated the problem with defense is its to simple to easy to pull off. 90 percent of the time for all classes even assassin classes defense for the most part is automated. want to find out go make a custom match invite a friend to practice. Have him be in the same guard stance for all attacks. and just swing at him. youl find his blocks are automated. that's correct basic blocks are automated. Within the open beta basic blocking was not automated. you had to manualy block if u didn't you still got hit regaurdless of the type of attack. Secondly parrys Parrys were not a one button feature to pull off. they were excuted in the same manor as a deflect. Difference being you didn't have to wait till impact to excute a parry. Within the open beta to excute a parry you had to hold the thumbstick in the direction of the attack then hit heavy attack. In the game live all you need to do is be in the same guard stance and hit the right trigger. My point being defense is to automatic in the live version of the game. want to see a true fix for the game read my above post