A Simple Solution to the Defensive Meta (that isn't going anywhere) | Forums

[Gubermensch]

Chip damage

IMPORTANT: The problem addressed is not as critical to Warlord, Warden, Shugoki or Conqueror because they have broken mechanics the rest of the classes don't.

edit: tl;dr - Players gain advantage by turtling and looking for one specific attack to parry. Adding chip damage will resonate throughout combat and bring it back to the core of the game. Attacks are more potent > all parrying attempts increase > feints are more effective > feint punishes become more prevalent.

An opponent can gain a significant advantage by turtling. There is a smaller incentive to attack first, since the defensive reward is greater. This negatively impacts the feel of the game. A simple solution to encourage the dynamic exchanges intended by the designers is a slight increase in chip damage. This damage can be fine-tuned to accommodate the average attack frequency of various heros (PK chip damage should be smaller than Shugoki's).

A blocked hit should still do 5-20% of the damage of an attack, where a parry would result in zero damage and the same mechanic currently in play. This significantly increases the incentive to attack, diminishes the incentive to turtle, and increases the amount of parrying players will attempt, and therefore the parry baiting and punishes (ie. Feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, interrupt with gb; or feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, light attack; etc.).

Boom, meta equilibrium.

edit: in addition to chip damage, enabling later feinting (actions that follow later feints should be slower) might be a great idea.

Update: Meta Snapshot, 1v1 tournament today, Top 16

https://clips.twitch.tv/kingrichard1...hopperRuleFive

[Black_Star300]

No, as a conqueror main. I have to play smart and not get over aggressive on these assassin classes. It's what being a heavy does. Counter attackers need someone to attack. This game is a chess game. Eventually someone will get impatient and attack. Hell, I'll sit the whole 5 mins if need be, but you know what. That person will eventually get too impatient and attack and that's when you punish. If I try to initiate a heavy with an assassin I'll get severely sidestepped and parried and combo-ed like crazy and I need to be punished for playing my class?

NO, just no.

[Snow901]

I hear your complaint about a "defensive" meta, and I point you to play an assassin class if you prefer to play more offensive. A good player will be able to break through someone's defense if they know how to play their character well enough. It's all about mindgames really.

[Gubermensch]

No, as a conqueror main. I have to play smart and not get over aggressive on these assassin classes. It's what being a heavy does. Counter attackers need someone to attack. This game is a chess game. Eventually someone will get impatient and attack. Hell, I'll sit the whole 5 mins if need be, but you know what. That person will eventually get too impatient and attack and that's when you punish. If I try to initiate a heavy with an assassin I'll get severely sidestepped and parried and combo-ed like crazy and I need to be punished for playing my class?

NO, just no.

You've brought up a few things, the conqueror class (Which needs a significant buff to attacking and a nerf to an unpunishable shield bash), and counterattacking.

Please don't knee-jerk dismiss this because in your mind you are imaging the assassins being rewarded due to the fact that they attack more frequently. This can be factored in to the chip damage values. Be flexible here...

What if the PK does 1% damage per chip vs. 20% by the conqueror? Would you maintain that this is balanced? I doubt it. So there is a way to make this work, and achieve the goal of maintaining the chess game you describe, but remove the incentive to be inactive in combat (And make it more fun and challenging).

One can come up with a formula to determine the chip damage that factors in attack speed (Lowers chip damage), stamina pool size (Lower chip damage), stamina usage per attack (Raises chip damage), overall damage, etc.

[Black_Star300]

I hear your complaint about a "defensive" meta, and I point you to play an assassin class if you prefer to play more offensive. A good player will be able to break through someone's defense if they know how to play their character well enough. It's all about mindgames really.

You've brought up a few things, the conqueror class (Which needs a significant buff to attacking and a nerf to an unpunishable shield block), and counterattacking.

Please don't knee-jerk dismiss this because in your mind you are imaging the assassins being rewarded due to the fact that they attack more frequently. This can be factored in to the chip damage values. Be flexible here...

What if the PK does 1% damage per chip vs. 20% by the conqueror? Would you maintain that this is balanced? I doubt it. So there is a way to make this work, and achieve the goal of maintaining the chess game you describe, but remove the incentive to be inactive in combat (And make it more fun and challenging).

One can come up with a formula to determine the chip damage that factors in attack speed (Lowers chip damage), stamina pool size (Lower chip damage), stamina usage per attack (Raises chip damage), overall damage, etc.

We don't need an attack buff lol....That would make it EVEN more damage and I should know. Yes we are slow and heavy, but if I can land a nice hit I can take away about half your health. You wanna buff that buddy really? And like the person said right after me. You can find a way through it. I don't know what to say bud. I'm not the best conq out there and I can get punished out of my so called "turtle shell". I'm not gonna tell you to get good, but honestly the one thing you DON'T wanna do is buff the conqueror and I play this class and can say that its fine. I'd take more damage because then once I do land a nice hit you can just die in 1 shot. GG

[Gubermensch]

I hear your complaint about a "defensive" meta, and I point you to play an assassin class if you prefer to play more offensive. A good player will be able to break through someone's defense if they know how to play their character well enough. It's all about mindgames really.

I do play an assassin class. Players, particularly in a dueling context, at high level, gain benefit by turtling. I suspect this will be fairly obvious to most good players, but not all, particularly if they play a class that can open players up and keep the game moving (like Warden/Warlord).

[Gubermensch]

We don't need an attack buff lol....That would make it EVEN more damage and I should know. Yes we are slow and heavy, but if I can land a nice hit I can take away about half your health. You wanna buff that buddy really? And like the person said right after me. You can find a way through it. I don't know what to say bud. I'm not the best conq out there and I can get punished out of my so called "turtle shell". I'm not gonna tell you to get good, but honestly the one thing you DON'T wanna do is buff the conqueror and I play this class and can say that its fine. I'd take more damage because then once I do land a nice hit you can just die in 1 shot. GG

Look Bud, I would be happy to duel you and win 15 games in a row, but I am not sure that will persuade you. We all have our perspectives (and biases), informed by our own experiences in game. Mine being - great players can absolutely shut down an attacker, with a couple class exceptions (mentioned prior), should they focus entirely on defense. Coupled with this defensive posturing, they aim to monopolize the feint reward (The best players of course able to cancel any failed parry in real time). As long as they manage counter gb'ing (Which most great players can 99% of the time), they gain advantage.

Now that's fair enough, what we're arguing about now is whether or not this makes the game fun. You have already stated you're willing to wait an entire round without swinging. I think that makes the game boring, and I know some agree with me... a very slight adjustment can encourage an active exchange (no doubt the intention of the creators), class balance can be achieved, and the meta balanced.

[Black_Star300]

Look Bud, I would be happy to duel you and win 15 games in a row, but I am not sure that will persuade you. We all have our perspectives, informed by our own experiences in game. Mine being - great players can absolutely shut down an attacker, with a couple class exceptions (mentioned prior), should they focus entirely on defense. Coupled with this defensive posturing, they aim to monopolize the feint reward (The best players of course able to cancel any failed parry in real time). As long as they manage counter gb'ing (Which most great players can 99% of the time), they gain advantage.

Now that's fair enough, what we're arguing about now is whether or not this makes the game fun. You have already stated you're willing to wait an entire round without swinging. I think that makes the game boring, and I know some agree with me... a very slight adjustment can encourage an active exchange and a class balance can be achieved.

I would hold off bold claims. If you're on PS4 let's duel and see how good you are. Also, yea I'm willing to wait. It isn't boring. It's reading your opponent and waiting for them to do something. It does say in the character DEFENSE right? Some classes say "agile" or "counter attacker" or "harasser" and I'm telling you now berzerkers can F me up. Not sure you play that class, but honestly in war you think people are just throwing themselves at the enemy or you think they bunkered down for days or weeks waiting for the right moment? It's 5 minutes and if you go all 5 rounds at 5 minutes its 25minutes. Is our generation so quick to need things over NOW? If you're an assassin class put the fire down fast. I've been killed in mere seconds by assassin classes cuz they put the hurt down and so fast too.

But I don't even use superior block and honestly think its a waste of my stamina unless I'm in a huge gank, but yea if you're having issues with this "turtling" then I doubt you can beat me 15 rounds like you claim. Also conquerors can't feint so you can see my attacks coming ALL day. If you can't deal with that then I'm sorry....I feel really bad for you.

[Gubermensch]

I would hold off bold claims. If you're on PS4 let's duel and see how good you are. Also, yea I'm willing to wait. It isn't boring. It's reading your opponent and waiting for them to do something. It does say in the character DEFENSE right? Some classes say "agile" or "counter attacker" or "harasser" and I'm telling you now berzerkers can F me up. Not sure you play that class, but honestly in war you think people are just throwing themselves at the enemy or you think they bunkered down for days or weeks waiting for the right moment? It's 5 minutes and if you go all 5 rounds at 5 minutes its 25minutes. Is our generation so quick to need things over NOW? If you're an assassin class put the fire down fast. I've been killed in mere seconds by assassin classes cuz they put the hurt down and so fast too.

But I don't even use superior block and honestly think its a waste of my stamina unless I'm in a huge gank, but yea if you're having issues with this "turtling" then I doubt you can beat me 15 rounds like you claim. Also conquerors can't feint so you can see my attacks coming ALL day. If you can't deal with that then I'm sorry....I feel really bad for you.

You're a console pleb. This explains a lot. We'll have to wait for ranked to come out, and grant authority to arguments based on player skill.

We clearly disagree about the fun-factor in doing nothing for 25 minutes.

[Black_Star300]

You're a console pleb. This explains a lot. We'll have to wait for ranked to come out, and grant authority to arguments based on player skill.

We clearly disagree about the fun-factor in doing nothing for 25 minutes.

Oh nice look at you calling others "pleb" ha. You're just a stand up guy that probably can't beat heavies or defense classes so you come here to cry and whine because you can't win even on PC master race. God...you're just...you're something lol