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  1. #1

    Let's fix the "waiting game"

    Warning: english is not my main language so apologies in advance if there is mistakes in this text.

    If you care enough about this game and have researched a little bit on the internet about the opinion of people that take this kind of games always at a high level point of view you probably have read or heard that this game rewards passive/defensive playstyle way too much and the person that can parry better will almost always win in a 1v1 cenario, which is totally true.

    My opions on how to fix this problem is mostly based on my 3k hours experience as a Chivalry: Medieval Warfare competitive player and faith on the things which that game did right

    Stamina consuption: In Chivalry stamina is comsumed by: Missing attacks, Feinting, Blocking/parrying attacks, Dodging (only possible with the light melee class, the man-at-arms) and kicking. But your stamina is not comsumed by landing attacks! Doesn't matter if the attack gets blocked or actually inflicts damage, attacking first and landing that attack always give you a small yearly lead in Chivalry. For Honor in other hand takes away your stamina by attacking regardless if you land the strike or not, just putting you at the risk of getting parried, making no sense to ever attack first ever. My idea in the stamina consuption regard is making so the player on the defensive get his stamina drained instead of the player on the offense. I know that there is other ways to take away the enemy's stamina with other character's special habilities such as the Lawbringer's push but this rule should be applied to all characters in my opinion, more like as a core feature of the game and not just from special habilities of some characters.

    Penalities by being out of stamina: The stamina game is pretty trivial at the moment in my opinion. Just watch a top tier Peacekeeper named Ritch (iSkys friend) playstyle for exemple. He blow all his stamina up with feints and zone attacks, get out of stamina and just leaves. 9 out of 10 times the enemy won't be able to punish him just because you can dodge just as quickly as you had full stamina in For Honor. Yes, if you get parried or guardbroken with no stamina you can be thown at the ground and take a lot of extra damage, but turtling is just too strong, there is no penality by being on the defense and you can just defend and tech out of GBs until you have stamina again. In Chivalry the stamina game is vital. Even if you start with an amazing opener and drop the enemy's HP at 1, but spend all your stamina in the process, there is very little that you can do to prevent the enemy from comming back in the fight. In Chivalry, when your stamina reaches close to 0, you can't combo, you can't kick, you can't dodge as a man-at-arms, you can't feint and if you block/parry with less stamina than the attack drains, you get stunned by 1.5 seconds, which is enough for your oponent to get a free hit on you. That last block gives you a little bit of stamina back so you don't get vortex in the same situation over and over again until you die though. My idea in this regard is to make it so either you get a worse version of your normal dodge when you are out of stamina. Like having half of the dodge distance and/or half of the dodge speed would be pretty helpful to catch and punish. Or maybe giving a free guardbreak that cannot be teched if someone manage to get to you if you have no stamina. In this case they also should make so attacking is not super slow with no stamina so you can defend yourself against the guardbreak but still being on the offense.

    Some of you may think that this defeats the purpose of "fixing the wating game" because by doing so you are nerfing initiative. But there is a diference between initiative and spam. Assuming that they will change the game so initiative becomes more powerful you have to find a way around to balance "too much initiative" aka spamming.

    Feinting: This may not be of the agreement of everyone but i believe that feints (aka fakes) are very weak right now. You can only feint heavy attacks which got very distinct animations from the light attacks making feint reading really easy. The only thing feints achieve in the game at the moment is parry baiting. A player that cannot read feints and will attempt to parry one of your feints, will perform a heavy attack instead that you will try to parry in return. But a good player can see if they got feinted and gonna cancel their own parry/heavy attack, achieving nothing as result and judging by what players are capable to do already i don't give more than 2 months until the majority of the player base are reading feints. And if you feel that are getting pressured you can just block and feints become useless because all you need is a simple stance swap and not very sharp reaction time to respond to a feint. In Chivalry feints are really poweful because the parry mechanics work differently in that game so making comparisons probably wouldn't be reasonable but 1 thing that could be well transfered is the hability to feint all attacks, lights and heavies. This may sound hardcore but really isn't. Being able to feint every attack (not special habilities like those unblockable pushes) would raise the skill cap of this game so much because it is a defensive and offensive mechanic at the same time. Sometimes you will attack at the same time as your oponent but the trade may not be worth it so you should be able to feint to block. As the skill of players go up feinting will become more and more useful and balancing the stamina cost can easily make it not overpowered. Generally speaking being able to feint lights would open a lot more things to do defensively and offensively so you don't need just to wait and fish for parries.

    I have way more opinions about other things that could also be changed but those are the major ones. Just tell me what you guys think.

    edit: Just for the record i'm a top 1% Kensei player so i think i know what i'm talking about https://steamcommunity.com/linkfilte...GM-Nerd_BRUTAL
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  2. #2
    Originally Posted by FRAKTICA Go to original post
    It may be totally true that this is your opinion, but I stopped there because I do not accept your premise...

    Good Luck!
    you may not be aware of how the high lvl tryhard scene is atm but unless you spam something that is unparriable like Warden's shoulder bash or Warlord's headbutt you lose. Mixing up attacks is just useless atm. Eveything can be sight parried and once you get a parry is 1 shot kill near ledges and such.
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  3. #3
    Look i have one question to you OP. Even if feint worked, would you then considder this a good and healthy game?
    I for sure would not.
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  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Maaci Go to original post
    Look i have one question to you OP. Even if feint worked, would you then considder this a good and healthy game?
    I for sure would not.
    Yes, and is all listed why. Feints are useless at the moment against players that can read em and players that never attempt to parry ever. My goal is to make For Honor a competitive game with depth, and not make it bland just to please casuals.
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  5. #5
    Agreed. The defence->damage meta must be broken. People who currently enjoy the cheese will also grow tired of the one trick pony express - it makes the game shallow and boring.

    http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...or-Honor/page3
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  6. #6
    I asked that if FEINT DID WORK in current game, would you be happy then?(Now it isnt working ,i know).
    I wouldnt.

    Your suggestion in ecouraging it further feels way to much for me. I would be fine if perhaps one class had alot of feinting but other wise, i want to have less of it than now.
    To much feinting and it will start to feel to inconsistent in the long run. Thats my thought about it.
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  7. #7
    Great thread. You bring up some very important points. I just hope UBIsoft have the will to fix that game and not just use the duct tape method that will leave us with a convoluted mess of highly scripted combat.

    http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...or-Honor/page3
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  8. #8
    Originally Posted by FRAKTICA Go to original post
    Now you are just not making sense to me. Your OP says, "the person that can parry better will almost always win in a 1v1 cenario, which is totally true", with which I previously expressed disagreement. Now you complain that feints are useless against people who, "never attempt to parry ever", Well, based on your original premise, players who "never attempt to parry ever" , will lose to those that parry better, so why are you complaining about feints against them when they are giving you a certain win in accordance with the opening statement of your OP?

    Every character has pros and cons and every play-style can be countered. The meta for PvP in this game has not yet stabilized and will not so do until the vast majority of players have purple gear. Fundamental changes of the nature you are suggesting are premature in the current game environment, especially in light of the "yet-to-be-seen" results of what UBI has already acknowledged needs work.

    Positive assertions and ideas are obviously constructive to a point at any time, but declarations that fundamental game mechanics are broken or useless only muddy the waters and slow expansion of the player base; some people read the forums before buying a game. Your contradictory assertions do little more than make the point that not enough is yet known to understand how these many amazing variables will interact in the stabilized meta; I for one can't wait to find out!

    Of course the game has problems, perhaps more than it should for the price, but, may I ask you one question for the benefit of anyone reading this that is now considering buying the game: "Would you still buy this game even knowing everything you know now, including what UBI intends to do about known issues"?

    Good Luck to you!
    The fact that feints are useless against people that do not attempt to parry and parrying being overpowered at the moment have nothing to do with eachother. Just because there are bad players that cannot make use of a powerful mechanics doesn't make this machanic balanced. You should not ever balance the game around what players cannot do, and always around what the meta is, and yes, the meta has been stablished, you are just not well informed enough.
    If my statements are wrong, why every top tier player have pretty much 3 play styles? 1st making almost exclusive use of unparriable/unblockable attacks like warlord's headbutt and warden's shoulder charge. 2nd attacking only with moves that are way too fast to react to like PK's, Warden's, Orochi's zone attacks and ocasionally a top light (that get parried 5 out of 10 times). 3rd not attacking first ever if your charater don't have any charge hability or super fast attacks.
    Because all those things are about NOT getting parried. This is the meta.
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