Warden mixup is not broken | Forums

[nf_Straydog]

I have seen a lot of people suggesting that the Warden's shoulderbash mixup is broken. I don't agree with this. 50/50 mixups are a part of every fighting game, and are good for the game. There are two things related to the mixup that are making Warden too strong right now, one is the mixup leading into itself, and one is the mixup being easy to insert into regular pressure. Either the mixup should be difficult to set up (i.e., require the opponent to be knocked down, drained of stamina, only startable off of a top heavy, or something similar) which requires the Warden to FIRST win neutral in a CONVINCING way (not just landing a light attack/random poke.) OR, the mixup should retain its status as a strong neutral tool, but not lead into itself. Either of these things would be perfectly acceptable in my opinion. In fact, I think more classes should have something similar.

[Seraphid]

One thing is a 50/50 and another distinct is a 50/50 into a 50/50 into a 50/50...

And I don't think even that it's the broken thing. The broken thing with his mixup is that you're not able to punish if you answer. If you guess the guardbreak, you can have a light attack and if you dodge succesfuly to a side (Good luck with that since they can cancel the charge IN MIDDLE OF THE CHARGE) you don't even get a guardbreak to get something on. In the end, most of the time you loss 50% of your health and get nothing in return for guessing what's the other person doing.

[ThePollie]

50/50 mixup, fine. But the Warden's vortex isn't a 50/50. There's a lot more options to guess and that drastically increases how easily you fail it.

[Bob__Gnarly]

LOL it's low risk with high reward and can be spammed. It's easily the best 50/50 in the game.

[nf_Straydog]

it´s broken when he is basically the only class with such a versatile moveset. That´s what makes him so strong. No other char has such a potent and safe 5050

LOL it's low risk with high reward and can be spammed. It's easily the best 50/50 in the game.

It's so easy to tell who read the subject and not the post.

[Redulz]

a 50/50 means 2 options choose one if your guess is right your fine. but its not it has more then 2 options which is not 50/50 wich is 1 point invalid,but the broken part comes from his choice not being set in stone he can choose based off the defenders choice because the defender has to lock into a choice there isn't anytime to wait. if the warden was locked into a choice it would be fine but he can cancel into gb if you choose to dodge the quick charge wich is your only option for that attack sure you could anticipate the gb but then all the warden has to do is not cancel. in fighting games 50/50's are fine because the attacker is locked into a choice that if goes wrong can be punished in this scenario he isn't locked and safe on block.

[The_Mensan]

Overpowered is a comparison. You can either nerf Warden's vortex, or give everyone else a vortex, either which works.

[nf_Straydog]

well. i don´t agree with you that a 50/50 should not be lead into itself. that´s called a trap and is in a lot of fighting games.Just a thing you have to deal with. But i agreed with you to give more chars such a moveset.
Then again, i don´t know what you mean with neutral tool. Please explain.

Yeah, but generally those fighting games have something which the attacker must read, like an invulnerable DP.

When I say neutral tool I mean that if fighters are squaring off with each other, throwing pokes and feinting in an attempt to get an opening, starting the shoulderbash when you sense that you will have a gap is a good way to open the opponent up. It's not as good in neutral as warlord headbutt or conq shield bash but it's similarly threatening. Most/all characters should have a way to force a reaction that isn't passive.

[Ryumanjisen]

it´s broken when he is basically the only class with such a versatile moveset. That´s what makes him so strong. No other char has such a potent and safe 5050

Exactly. It's not broken in an strict fighting game sense, it's broken because he's the only one who can do it.

[ThePollie]

Here's the issue.

He shoulder-charges. To avoid this, you must dodge.
Which gets you hit if he guard-breaks. To avoid this, you must stay where you are.
Which gets you hit by the shoulder-charge.
You try to dodge-attack to beat the guard-break, he cancels and parries you. You get hit, anyway.
You try to attack through the shoulder-charge, he cancels and parries you.

You have up to four decisions to make in about half a second. At best, you get a Light attack on him. At worst, you eat a double-Light combo and get sucked back into the Vortex, to try again. It takes very little stamina, is braindead easy to use, and the only smart, 100% effective play is to do a full roll away and lose half your stamina. If you're not in an open field, he's on you with another Vortex before you can even recover. Once you're exhausted, you're stuck playing the guessing game, which you can't even punish if you get right.

The Warden's kit is fine without this, and nobody should have this much power.