Fixing the core of For Honor | Forums

[DivineRaiden]

Whilst your idea is a solid one it cannot work without Ubi changing the gameplay of some assassins.Why?Because their stance lasts only for a limited time.Also you don't really need to parry light attacks as you most likely suffer zero damage if you just block them and not all classes have crazy speed light attacks like warden or nobushi and others (noone comes to mind at this point).Also let's say i'm playing wtih an orochi and my opponent is a conqueror.Orochi as you all well now is a counter attacker and he is based on that.Conqueror on the other hand is a defensive hero who punishes you if you don't manage to land hits/grabs.What i get from this is the conqueror standing completely still parrying/blocking all my attacks and grab countering me,rendering me completely useless.Your idea won't change that which kinda cannot be countered.Even if you bait a heavy attack into a light attack from a different stance a full guard will take care of it.So basically i can't see a way around that.And as you said it's not that hard to Parry a heavy attack and it ain't that hard to just block a light attack when you are used to certain classes.Also the dodge can be countered with a guard break from close range as it cannot be countered (even if you time your counter correctly).The reason is because guard break follows through every dodge unless if your character has a side dodge attack ability which is the only way to counter it.I've tested the dodge-->grab--->grab counter thing a lot with bots and I never managed to counter it once(even when the timing was right).Don't know if it's a bug or intended but it's stupid for sure.

[Mr_Gallows]

It could easily work the same for assassins even with their reactionary stance. The direction indicator would quickly fill light up and then over a second deplete again.

But just a quick note on my idea. Don't see it as THE fix. See it more as a component in a potential fix.

They will keep banging their head against the wall because of two attack speeds and one block timing. They will keep comming up with artificial workarounds to balance stuff instead of balancing the core.

My fix just adresses a very specific thing, that will allow for several other things to be fixed.

Potentially with my system, if it was balanced, you wouldn't need GB at all to get a hit in, but could rely on feints (both mechanical and mind games). Then GB would be added on top as extra and not core.

[K1ngFlippyN1ps]

Reposting as my first thread had everything spread out all over the thread. I do not think classes like the assassins need a nerf (don't play any of them except a tiny bit of berserker). The problem is that with the current system the issues with the fast attacks, blocking and being able to land heavy attacks simply does not work out. My suggestion may look like a wall of text, but the fix is actually really simple and gives the developer more options for balancing characters, blocking, GB and other stuff without Breaking the game.

I agree that the defence/offence balance is broken.

The main issue is that the speed difference between light and heavy attacks makes it impossible to balance blocking for both, using the current system.

Block fix
The main problem is that light attacks are currently hard to block and heavy attacks are hard not to block. With the current system there is no way to fix this. There is an easy solution though.

Split the blocking into two states: Fast block and full block. As soon as you hit the block direction you are in fast block which will block light attacks. After a number of frames you are in full block and can block heavy attacks. No effect on attacking. The UI for it would just be the indicator filing up quickly, like the reverse of the assassins block fading out.

With that system the blocking could be balanced much better without ruining the ability to block light attacks or making heavy attacks impossible to land. Balancing it is just a matter of tuning the number of frames from fast block to full block.

An option would be slightly reduced damage from a fast blocked heavy attack. It would be worth considering if parry should be possible only from the correct block state, but even if you could parry a heavy from fast block state, it would be better than the current system.

With that in place some of the silly moves to allow for landing heavy hits freely could also be balanced better and focus could be on the very core of the game - the three attack/defence directions.

-

Just a bit more in depth explanation of the system I propose and why it would work.

1. Why would it work?
It is easy to implement and doesn't require any animation work or anything. It woiuld make heavy attacks only slightly easier to attack than light attacks (on average, because there are speed differences between classes, but more on this later). It would allow more focus on the core system of the three-way attack/defence system and not having to rely on GB and other mechanics to land a a heavy attack - those can still be used at high level play, but they can then be balanced better, so they are not as dominating in terms of landing heavy attacks. The game will be much easier to balance.



2. How to implement it?

a. First the block should have two states as explainted in the first post, to force players to react to heavy attacks in time to make a full block. A heavy attack hitting a block that isn't yet full will do slightly reduced damage, but the defender can still parry a heavy attack from a block that isn't full. Remove all delay from blocking, because with this system it isn't needed, and the game can feel responsive and predictable.

b. Characters should then be balanced in terms of speed and damage of attacks. The characters are already very different in playstyle and the difference in attack speed between characters should be toned down a bit. Everything balanced with damage of course.

c. GB can then be balanced to be used as a tool against defensive characters and not used by defensive characters to go on the offensive by parry. Remove the 100% GB after parry, and instead let parry be purely as a defensive tool, that only switches initiative from the defender to the attacker and not secures safe hits. Parry will do several things. It will push back the opponent like now, so he cannot attack again without getting hit first if the defender counterattacks. Second parry will switch the guard of the attacker to a different position. Third parry will drain stamina from the attacker as it does now. A GB can still be attempted but it is possible to counter it. This opens up a lot of different options for the person making a successful parry, while still allowing defence,

d. Class balance could be done around the two states of block as well. Really quick characters with fast attacks may have to react just a few frames quicker to get a full block in time, to balance their offensive and defensive capabilities without gimping their ability to be quick. Balancing the different classes would be easier.


Dodge.
Dodge needs a fix as well, now we're at it. It is too easy to dodge and counter. You can use feints for force dodges, but since dodge is free it's really not working very well. Dodging should be a purely defensive tool like blocking, unless you do a deflect. Dodging should have a stamina cost and if you're exhausted you should only be able to block and parry. So if someone dodges your attack you should still be able to block if they didn't do a deflect. Dodge timing should be slightly tighter, so that if you dodge early, you get hit. This would allow for blocking the dodge counterattack without screwing the animations up too much. I am fine with deflect giving a free attack as this can more easily be countered through feints. Also limit side dodging against side attacks to only work if you dodge towards the attack or backwards. Top attacks can be dodged to either side, but not backwards unless you do an early roll. Just initial ideas, but I think a lot of people have ideas about how to fix dodge spam. It can be fixed in several ways, but it needs a fix.

What do you think about characters with all the unblockable guard break moves? To me, those moves bring a great deal of imbalance to the game because 1. most of them can be spammed in combos 2. you just cannot side step/ dash away from some of them 3. some of them cover an insane amount of distance to still connect even when rolling or trynig to roll away (looking at you warden). I feel the characters that have those moves (even though i use some like Nobushi) should use up more stamina when using the unblockable guard break so it cant be used more than twice in a chain before you completely run out of stamina. Fighting wardens and Lawbringers is a pain because they can spam those guard breaks and it becomes a cheese fest of who can out cheese the other and get the free hits on guard breaks. Nobushi's guard break kick is so easily dodged its not even funny so why cant wardens shoulder charge be side stepped or backed away from just as easily??? it boggles my brain! I also agree with Maaci about adding more combos as some heros just lack them (cough, cough, Shugoki, cough) and it would bring a whole lot more to the table for character use. In most cases now (if i dont get continuous disconnects) I wont even bother fighting a warden solely because of that damn shoulder charge into guaranteed light hits. But yea, my main gripe is those guard breaks and unblockable guard break spams.

[nyrue]

I really do disagree with this thread in its entirety the reason heavy attacks are easy to block and parry is cause they do more damage light attacks do smaller amounts of damage and are harder to block that's fighting game 101 risk vs reward

[Mr_Gallows]

In this fix heavy attacks will also be easier to block, but it will simply be easier to balance both seperately.

[Maaci]

I am not sure I entirely understand what your suggesting in terms of more interaction. Combochains that cannot be blocked - that would be mad I think, because how would they defend?

Nono. You can still block all combos. You might confuse the word uninterruptible? Right now when you block a light attack, you cant follow up with any more attacks. Making combos none-existent.

And as for this whole parry->into GB. Its not fun, it feels cheap. I rather have this gone and something else there instead. Sure, maybe a few heroes can still have it. Like 1 or 2.

As for this whole interaction thing iam talking about:
a bad interaction:
player 1 attacks
player 2 parries, player 2 cant do anything for x time. Thats a bad interaction.

A good interaction would be something like this:
Player 1 attacks
Player 2 parries, player 2 are not "paralysed" and can act. Meaning Player 1 cant do "free" damage, and here something else could happen. Perhaps the parry could start a "parry combo" after. Making that combo different than his regulars. FOr example.

More power for both. More back and forth.

The main problem is that light attacks are currently hard to block and heavy attacks are hard not to block

Thats the thing, if you reach a decent+ level, light attacks are not hard to block. So your suggestion doesnt really do much at all.
I asked before if you could maybe tweak your idea and come up with something i would for sure be interested to hear it, and then potentially have something like that (if you tweak your idea and write here) on 1hero.

[Mr_Gallows]

I see maaci, thanks for that clarification. Except for the uninteruptable combos, your goal is precisely what I am looking for. However I don't want combos to becom the new trick either however - single attacks should also be viable in certain situations.

Lets run with your combo idea though and combine it with my idea where parry no longer leads to free damage but simply gives initiative to the defender without disabling the attackers ability to defend. Blocks will prevent damage from combos but will not interrupt the combo chain. A parry however could have the ability to interrupt a combo chain and switch initiative. Very good that could actually work to make combos more viable and make blocking the first attack important.

It may lead to a few issues with the endless combo chains, but I'll leave that issue for later, because there are several ways that can be handeled.

Our ideas will combine very well to make a more involved combat.

To explain my idea in terms of how easy it should be to block. light attacks currently have a decent balance in terms of blocking if they fix the responsiveness of blocking to be consistent. What I suggest with the half and full block system is that the balance of light attack blocking remains the same, but heavy attacks become slightly harder to block, but still slightly easier than light attacks.

This will supplement your combo idea very well because if a combo involves heavy attacks and light attacks, your idea will allow the combo to continue, but the heavy attacks still does no damage when blocked. Combined with my idea however there will be a better balance between offence and defence without gimping defence in a way that makes you unable to block at all. It will require some skill as opposed to none as it is now. Combine all this with feints, and a rebalanced guard break - then you have a much more open ended system. The general rule will be that defence never leads to damage but merely a shift in initiative.

The feint could be used as a transitional tool as well to cancel an attack and transition to a new combo. Guard break could be used to counter a feint as well, if you're quick.

Parry will break all combo chains and allow counterattacls, that is still blockable. Combo chains running off a parry should also be blockable or dodgeable if they are normal attacks. The Warlords light counterattack for instance could be blockable, even if hard to block.

I don't like unblockables either, but I'm going for a fix that doesn't completely redesign the game, because that isn't realistic. So we have to make it work with all that is in the game.

Now it already became much more comprehensive and I strongly believe that by fixing the core of block/attack balance for both light and heavy the developers will be able to achieve better balance more freedom to tweak GB, parry, dodge and counterattacks. Your combo idea however could work well with this system to make parry very important as a defensive tool merely shifting initiative and not leading directly to damage from defending.

[nyrue]

In this fix heavy attacks will also be easier to block, but it will simply be easier to balance both seperately.

its already insanely easy to block though.......

[Maaci]

Alright, I like your block suggestion. Just to be clear, if you half-block a heavy attack, what would happpen? Some potential problems exists though, such as when fighting two opponents. That for later.

Just to be clear. What i meant with uninterruptible combos was only against blocking, not when being hit. Perhaps it was a confusion around that.


As for parrying switching the initiative. For most heroes it would enable a combo-chain that starts right after that parry. While for other heroes, it could be a bit different. To have classes feel more unique and having you think a bit different vs different classes. Big potential in variation here, thats my point.

A parry chain could potentially last forever, but dont forget, the player that did the parrying could also choose to not continue with the chain-reaction.


As for normal combos, might have been a bit of confusion here. My intention was for them to never last forever, just like in the game, 2-4 attacks. Maybe 1-3 heroes could have longer.

And as for normal combos, its also potential to make a few combos more dangerous to finish since perhaps the last attack in the combo is slower than normal, making it possible for the defender to initiate.

its already insanely easy to block though.......

You misunderstand. His idea is simple, blocking light attack would be the same as in the current game while blocking heavy attacks would be harder than it currently is.

[Mr_Gallows]

its already insanely easy to block though.......

Please don't do that! Either you're being a troll or you didn't read the post.

In case you had no ill will, I'll clarify it for you. Heavy attacks will be harder to block although stil easier than light attacks.

In terms of "half-blocking" heavy attacks there are several options - full damage, reduced damage, parries allowed to negate all damage or no parry allowed unless block is full. Those are details that belongs in the realm of fine tuning.

External attacks can be handeled in two ways, half blocks negating damage from both light or heavy, or as with defending against your main target. With target switching it would have to be balanced to not be exploitable in case the first option was used.

I also propose a slight tweak to the UI where heavy attacks looks a bit different on the target indicator for balance across all classes.

As for combos I'd also very much like to see the concept of branching combos. Two combos may begin the same and end differently. Some classes already have something that works sort of like that, but would like to see it across all characters.