Senior Member
Reposting as my first thread had everything spread out all over the thread. I do not think classes like the assassins need a nerf (don't play any of them except a tiny bit of berserker). The problem is that with the current system the issues with the fast attacks, blocking and being able to land heavy attacks simply does not work out. My suggestion may look like a wall of text, but the fix is actually really simple and gives the developer more options for balancing characters, blocking, GB and other stuff without Breaking the game.
I agree that the defence/offence balance is broken.
The main issue is that the speed difference between light and heavy attacks makes it impossible to balance blocking for both, using the current system.
Block fix
The main problem is that light attacks are currently hard to block and heavy attacks are hard not to block. With the current system there is no way to fix this. There is an easy solution though.
Split the blocking into two states: Fast block and full block. As soon as you hit the block direction you are in fast block which will block light attacks. After a number of frames you are in full block and can block heavy attacks. No effect on attacking. The UI for it would just be the indicator filing up quickly, like the reverse of the assassins block fading out.
With that system the blocking could be balanced much better without ruining the ability to block light attacks or making heavy attacks impossible to land. Balancing it is just a matter of tuning the number of frames from fast block to full block.
An option would be slightly reduced damage from a fast blocked heavy attack. It would be worth considering if parry should be possible only from the correct block state, but even if you could parry a heavy from fast block state, it would be better than the current system.
With that in place some of the silly moves to allow for landing heavy hits freely could also be balanced better and focus could be on the very core of the game - the three attack/defence directions.
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Just a bit more in depth explanation of the system I propose and why it would work.
1. Why would it work?
It is easy to implement and doesn't require any animation work or anything. It woiuld make heavy attacks only slightly easier to attack than light attacks (on average, because there are speed differences between classes, but more on this later). It would allow more focus on the core system of the three-way attack/defence system and not having to rely on GB and other mechanics to land a a heavy attack - those can still be used at high level play, but they can then be balanced better, so they are not as dominating in terms of landing heavy attacks. The game will be much easier to balance.
2. How to implement it?
a. First the block should have two states as explainted in the first post, to force players to react to heavy attacks in time to make a full block. A heavy attack hitting a block that isn't yet full will do slightly reduced damage, but the defender can still parry a heavy attack from a block that isn't full. Remove all delay from blocking, because with this system it isn't needed, and the game can feel responsive and predictable.
b. Characters should then be balanced in terms of speed and damage of attacks. The characters are already very different in playstyle and the difference in attack speed between characters should be toned down a bit. Everything balanced with damage of course.
c. GB can then be balanced to be used as a tool against defensive characters and not used by defensive characters to go on the offensive by parry. Remove the 100% GB after parry, and instead let parry be purely as a defensive tool, that only switches initiative from the defender to the attacker and not secures safe hits. Parry will do several things. It will push back the opponent like now, so he cannot attack again without getting hit first if the defender counterattacks. Second parry will switch the guard of the attacker to a different position. Third parry will drain stamina from the attacker as it does now. A GB can still be attempted but it is possible to counter it. This opens up a lot of different options for the person making a successful parry, while still allowing defence,
d. Class balance could be done around the two states of block as well. Really quick characters with fast attacks may have to react just a few frames quicker to get a full block in time, to balance their offensive and defensive capabilities without gimping their ability to be quick. Balancing the different classes would be easier.
Dodge.
Dodge needs a fix as well, now we're at it. It is too easy to dodge and counter. You can use feints for force dodges, but since dodge is free it's really not working very well. Dodging should be a purely defensive tool like blocking, unless you do a deflect. Dodging should have a stamina cost and if you're exhausted you should only be able to block and parry. So if someone dodges your attack you should still be able to block if they didn't do a deflect. Dodge timing should be slightly tighter, so that if you dodge early, you get hit. This would allow for blocking the dodge counterattack without screwing the animations up too much. I am fine with deflect giving a free attack as this can more easily be countered through feints. Also limit side dodging against side attacks to only work if you dodge towards the attack or backwards. Top attacks can be dodged to either side, but not backwards unless you do an early roll. Just initial ideas, but I think a lot of people have ideas about how to fix dodge spam. It can be fixed in several ways, but it needs a fix.
Member
I think this is taking this to far. A "fix" would be to encourage more combos, and make combos more mixed up for a player(adding more of them to classes with more variation).With the current system there is no way to fix this.
Also if you could somehow add so some attacks are non-parryable, making it so the defender need to defend several attacks in a row would encourage offense.
Could also make combos have a mix up of your special attack(the undodgeable) to really put the focus on the defender.
See, there are several ways to fix the offense/defence.
As for your suggestion, it doesnt fix the issue at its core, here is why:
The defender can still do just that, defend. You still cant break it if he just defends. That is what is an issue from a design perspective. I want to see how a skillfull offensive player plays and i also want to see a skillfull defence player play but right now defence->attack. Its not about "skill".
Look you should be able to master everything. But it should require more finesse for both, that is what needs to change.
Since you linked your posts i will link mine:
From this thread you linked this post:http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...esign-problems
I link my post here: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...roved-gameplay
In that post i am doing suggestions to open up the combo
Senior Member
Yes I read your ideas and they are well thought out. I still believe the core issue that having two attack speeds and one block speed causes fundamental issues that could be fixed to open up gameplay, especially at High level with combos, feints etc. playing a big part. Don't think our ideas are opposed, but I am glad that you and others participate in the debate, because whatever our ideas is, we can agree that something needs fixing in some way.
As for defence. With my idea defence would no longer be such a powerful offensive tool, when parry no longer ensures a GB. It will put emphasis on taking the offensive initiative to win, and it will make combos including or starting on a heavy more viable
I agree with you 100% that the defence->offence problem is an issue. But it's worse that that really. If defence could lead to offence, it would be fine and just a shift in initiative. The problem is that it is in fact defence->damage.
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Although if this idea of yours doesnt work 100% perhaps it could be tweaked, thats what usually happens with ideas in the first place.
Must admit iam not very creative, can take a while for me to come up with something so feel free to tweak your idea and post here.
Not sure i see where this is a fundamental issue though. But it would be a clearer picture if the games defence gets tweaked from ubisoft.
Senior Member
The main issue is one of balancing. Without a system of partial and full block affecting light and heavy attacks differently, you cannot balance how easy it is to defend/attack without ruining either the ability to land heavy attacks or block light attacks.
It also opens up more gameplay, as the parry is now a very viable defensive tool instead of a tool to ensure safe damage.
With the blocking split between partial and full, there would be more ways to balance attacks and classes, based on the timing at which characters achieve full block. To offset their great offensive capabilities, assassins could like now be great at blocking light attacks, but achieving a ful block would take slightly more frames compared to a slower character. This would give developers some extra gears to tune, to achieve better balance in general combat and between classes. The assassin example was just that - an example. It was not a suggestion as to how it has to work. But this fix would give the developers the tools they need to balance the game without breaking it.
Currently GB is often needed to land heavy attacks, although you can sneak one in after a parry or a feint. This leads to the problem that parry and GB cannot be balanced because doing to will completely screw with the offence/defence balance. With the split block system GB and feints would be extra options, rather than prereqs to hitting. Parry could then be altered to not give free damage, but instead merely shift initiative. This would take the game out of the turtle mode. GBs could also be handled differently and the developers would not have to worry so much that balancing it will break the game. Feints would work mostly as they do now, although I'l like to see a more fluent transition from the feint to the next attack. But it would work just fine with the current animation.
So while my idea looks like a wall of text, most of it is really explanation, and it is a simple and subtle change, that would just create balance between blocking and attacking, making defence and offence more clearly defined. There would still be room for all the counterattacks, deflects and such, as they are unrelated to blocking, so no major changes needs to be done to the skill sets. I guess some heavy attack speed balancing would be needed between the classes, but those are the fine details.
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Blocks, I feel, are the least of the issues Heavy attacks face.
As a huge fan of the Lawbringer, my biggest issues with trying to land heavy attacks are that other characters simply parry or EASILY dodge out of them.
I kinda like your idea? Like, it's not a bad one, but it implies that it'll balance properly for heavy attacks but heavy attacks will still be difficult to land because of other more PRESSING issues.
I'd like to see dodging require stamina use, and characters be entirely unable to do it when drained. Does that sound cruel? Playing the Lawbringer in his current state is far crueler.
Senior Member
I hear you Masterson - I also like to swing my big raider axe around
You are right that the parrying is an issue, but lets look at parry. Currently parry is needed to get an offensive option in what would otherwise be a stalemate. This is the case in many fight once you get blocking down. Parry leads directly to damage. If blocking is balanced better for both light and heavy attacks, then people will not have to rely mostly on GB and parry as offensive tools. This means parry (and GB) can be rebalanced. You may still get parried, but all it will do is shift initiative to the defender and not cause damage.'
So your issue is a valid one, but it will be a lot easier to deal with, once the core balance between light and heavy attack blocking works :
Hope that makes sense - otherwise lets go deeper into the matter, because this game CAN be the best melee game ever, if they step up and fix a few things.
I also agree with dodging being an issue, as I write in my initial post, but tried to focus mainly on blocking, because other people have great ideas about the balancing of dodging, which isn't directly tied to blocking, so they can be balanced individually for the most part.
Member
I agree, using heavies is pretty much none-existent at this moment, but so are combos. This block system would not fix any of those things. I would like to see those things being encouraged into the game quite heavy because using combos is a fun part of this game, or atleast it should be. While defending could be more fun aswell imo.Originally Posted by DJ_Masterson Go to original post
About dodge, i think it is necessary to actually think things through more carefully about that(all ideas i have read i dislike overall). Right now, several characters is a big no-no using heavies against assassins(And even other chars), a simple fix to stamina would not fix it, i truly believe the interaction between the two should be more fun and engaging than it is in the game. I want the players to earn and fight more for damage, both that is, and more interactions:
Just to show you what i mean by interaction:
Player 1 hits a light combo, 3attacks(even when opponent defends the first light attack it doesnt gets interrupted)
Player 2 defends two attacks, while gets hit by one(decent defence)
Player 1 hits a heavy attack
Player 2 dodges that heavy attack and hits a fast light attack into a heavy attack
Player 1 can still block all attacks but since his attack got dodged he is still in an disatvantage(and cant attack just yet)
(And it can move on. Imagine with a slightly faster pace for example and so on. I mean the things to be done about this is enourmous this is just a nail in the coffein.)
For example, parries makes the defender always have the advantage and also get free damage. I dont like that, how about if you parry you have to still "earn" the damage by allowing the opponent to defend. Just an example. There are many ideas to be said about this.
Doesnt mean everyone should have this parry gone, perhaps 1 or 2 heroes can still keep it.
I might think about dodging and defending more and do a thread about it, all i have done now is made a thread about making combos a bigger part into the game while also touching slightly about parry.
Iam curious what you would think about this idea:
Parry gets removed for one hero.
Instead its replaced by something else:->
Player 1 hits a heavy attack->player 2 uses the "parry move"->Player 1 is not vulnerable like in the current game, instead->player 2 can make a combo chain right after the "parry move" while player 1 still have a chance to defend against everything.
So for that idea, lets imagine if that combochain were unblockable and unparryable so the defender really have to defend.
Iam also aware that some heroes blocks much slower and that would need a fix aswell imo. Just curious what you think about the idea of more interaction, whats your first impression about it?
Senior Member
Saying that the fix will not remedy the fact that blocking heavies is too easy. Look at the suggestion in context. You can already feint a heavy and hit with a light. Using this suggestion you may be able to feint with a heavy and get a hit. If anything it adresses the issue with heavies being too easy to block, more than anything else - without touching the balance in relation to light attacks. There must be other systems on top of that of course like GB, Parry, dodge, feint, combos etc.
But the fix, will allow better balance between offence and defence without upsetting balance of either light or heavy attacks.
I am not sure I entirely understand what your suggesting in terms of more interaction. Combochains that cannot be blocked - that would be mad I think, because how would they defend?
I agree more interaction, more depth and more options. People should not have to rely on specific mixups to get hits in. Right now you can parry a heavy attack in your sleep. If parrying heavy attacks required some degree of concentration, then feints, mind games etc. could make hits, where as now there is no chance.
That would in turn also make combos a lot easier to land and combos couls also be balanced better, because timings of hits can be balanced better when block takes into account that the game has both quick and slow attacks.
I think we agree somewhat on a more interactive and dynamic combat system. What I propose will give a foundation for balance and a lot of other stuff.
