Member
I've been coming against it more and more and getting better at dealing with it, but there are 2 main issues I have:
1) Heroes that don't have a dodge attack have no safe option, dodge get GB, wait for the GB get bashed, it's not a true 50/50 because the Warden can pick an option that will always win based on how his opponent tries to play it. In a true 50/50 the aggressor attempts a move and his opponent will have one option that prevents it and one that will be damaged by it, but because the Warden can change the move depending on the reaction it's not a 50/50.
2) Heroes that do have a dodge attack still aren't safe because good Warden's will cancel the bash altogether with the feint button and the parry the attack - which is a parry light for every hero but PK which means a guaranteed top heavy.
Member
That's not my argument at all. Read it for what it is, not as what you want to see. My point is that if you nerf it by removing the mix-up option he will be another Kensei running around the battlefield. Which, as I explained, is just fodder to be slaughtered because they lack the necessary tools to bypass the innate fact that attacking people is going to get you killed. I even gave a suggestion that does nerf it. Increase the level of punish-ability on it that is in proportion to the reward. Right now even if you dodge it sometimes the Warden can recover from anything you might do including a GB. This shouldn't be the case. It shouldn't be free. This is of course countered by the fact that any OTHER character with a bash can punish it with their own bash. One more reason bashes are stupidly good in this game right now.
You still sound a little miffed that I beat you in the game with a response like that ;-) Be objective. I won't lie to you. The Warden is a better character than the Conqueror. Though they both have a bash, the Warden can cancel his, making the most useful move in the game twice as useful for the Warden. It's a problem because they are really the only viable options at the moment for high level players. It's why all you ever did to me was try and shield bash me or dash to the side and shield bash me. And all I ever did was try and stop hit your bash with my top light or dodge it and shoulder bash you back. Because if we attack we'll get parried, and if I block any of your lights I'll get a free GB (which is RIDICULOUS). Charge up that flail? Well, I'm not going to attack you because I know you can go through it... So I'll just stand here and make you all-block or, god forbid, you actually let that heavy attack lose... I'm going to parry it every time, get my guaranteed GB, and do silly damage that shouldn't have ever been guaranteed because this game's mechanics made parryable offense useless.
Because these moves are the only real viable options at the moment, they are a symptom of the real problems. Which are the game mechanics. The problem lies in the inherent uselessness of "attacks" to the point of being counter intuitive when trying to kill another player. Getting one parry off simply because a guy is trying to damage your health bar with his weapon and throwing him off a ledge with a guaranteed GB is broken. A guy who is trying to combo you and pressure you with offense doing 10 or 15 damage per attack getting parried, thrown into a wall, and popped in the head for 40 damage is broken. Things like this are the problem. It shouldn't be easier to kill your opponent by standing there countering any move he might make on reaction than trying to stab him through the gut. Defense should be a thing, but not like this. The Warden's shoulder charge being a strong tool is exacerbated by these problems.
Thus, nerfing the GB cancel on it would make it useless, because anyone can dodge it on reaction unlike the conqs and warlords bash. What makes it scary is the fact that you don't know which one he might do. Which again, throw a heavy at his face or dodge and punish and the 50/50 is just about fair. Remember that he outplayed you in the first place by being on the offensive. I think one good thing to look at would be the stamina cost for all charge/bash related moves for all characters. They should not be repeatable more than 2ish times IMO. Regardless, the Warden has no other tools other than his counter crush which is a defensive, not an offensive tool. He's not like the Orochi where you can just throw out a zone because, "who cares? It's safe and near impossible to react to". So what we should all be discussing is how to fix mechanics that break this game. Such as safe parrying, guaranteed GB's off of parries, and other things like attacking your opponent with a heavy attack, ever, is going to get you killed. Imagine if blocked light attacks didn't interrupt your chain and you could actually try and hit someone with a chain and feints rather than being stunned back because someone blocked your attack. That would be way more intense and way more interesting. Ever had a guy with revenge just hacking at you? It'd be like that because in revenge your blocked lights don't stagger you back. Trying to block all those attacks is fun and now the parry and feint game would probably be more interesting. The opponent could also try and overwhelm your defense and play a trick/mix-up game.
Member
@LordoftheBewbs
As you pointed out, Wardens can cancel shoulder bashes anyway, so getting rid of the cancel into instant GB doesn't make their bash useless. Wardens are generally balanced except for this one ability. Get rid of it and they're still perfectly competitive in capable hands. Conq's bash is absolutely dodgeable on reaction btw, and the Warden zone is as fast as the Orochi's, with the same built-in attack direction indicator trick and longer range.
Your proposed changes would make fast attackers like PK and Orochi even more powerful than they already are. They already can't be punished for light attacks being blocked, but at least they can't follow through on combos. Parry and GB could be adjusted, but any changes I've seen proposed would radically change the game and throw off the balance of every move and class. That's a much bigger discussion than we're dealing with here.
Junior Member
Ok... it is JUNE 2017, and Warden is still one of the top characters (proven through tournaments and people's win rate with him) and people are still complaining it is BROKEN. So, it is broken. No one, literally, no one who is not a warden main is not defending this 50/50. No other character has it. Period. They need to remove it. They tried with the shinobi, people were upset and they are removing it. Why on earth not for the warden. He has so many options, this is just making him ridiculous. Having to guess is stupid, plain and simple. It is a fighting game, based on reactions, faints and skillful moves, not spamming a "vortex" and only get maaaaaybe punished if the opponent guesses (let me emphasize that again - GUESSES) right one of the warden's FOUR options - 1) shoulder bash into free lights, 2) shoulder into GB, 3) Charged shoulder with uninterruptible shield and higher tracking and 4) Shoulder bash cancel into parry. It is 25% chance of guessing right. What about characters that have no dash attacks? No fast lights? You gotta keep your guard either top or side left in order not to take the lightning fast top light or zone, and then your light attack in this guard stance might not even be the fastest one in order to maybe be able to react immediately to the shoulder by light attacking him. For f*** sake people.
Member
This is true for assassins and kensei who have built in dodge attack mechanics, but what about the heros who don't have side dash attacks in their kits what do they do?Originally Posted by ThePollie Go to original post
Member
Update on this:
They're not removing his ability to cancel his shoulder bash into a guard break, but they are putting serious restrictions on it.
They put a set timing window on his cancel, 400ms after the start of the shoulder bash. This is the point at which they have to decide on holding the shoulder bash, or to cancel it, or let it fly. This is plenty of time for you to dodge to the side and use a light attack. If you play characters like Lawbringer or a character with a dodge attack, you'll counter the shoulder bash almost every time if you're fast enough.
For example, I play Lawbringer and can dodge to the side and shove every time a warden comes at me with shoulder bash. By the time they cancel the bash and try to guard break me I'm already in my shove animation and cannot be grabbed. There's also not enough time for him to dodge my shove since he will only be able to cancel his shoulder bash at 400ms. He can NO LONGER CANCEL HIS SHOULDER BASH IMMEDIATELY.
This means no more shoulder bash spamming, add on to that the fact that the base stamina cost is increasing from 5 to 20, and feinting it costs even more. Wardens are going to struggle a lot after tomorrow's patch. You still have to play smart against them, but you actually have a fighting chance now if you're not also a character with a 50/50 move.
Senior Member
man warden gets a lott of hate. have any of the complainers actually picked a warden to play?
how on earth can you ask them to remove the SB cancel because every way i look at these comments, you re not asking for a balance your asking for a complete move remove).
I honestly think that after 2 needs warden is perfect.
i'd like to know from those that say "after removeing that move warden is still a viable hero", 2hat are the wardens options after this? a lame sb that can be dodge EVERY TIME? unlike warden who can cancel it conqueror has the superior block and the all stance block... think before asking a remove of a move what impact it will have on the hero because it seems like ppl who ask for it's removal haven't played him once and only ppl that play him knows the advantages and the disadvantages, and that's why THEY agree with his NERF not his REMOVAL
Member
I agree with you to a small extent. Yeah this is a hard nerf to Wardens everywhere, but I personally don't think it will end up being way too bad. (I mained warden for a little bit, got bored, moved to LB on release).Originally Posted by Gemoroda Go to original post
As it stands, he's just too overpowering in any situation, especially 1v1. His two tags are "Versatile" and "Simple". The problem here is that his character relies on the basics so much (and has such a small moveset) that he only has about 6 moves total, including the shoulder bash. Removing it entirely would make him much worse, albeit he would get a lot less hate.
His shoulder bash is his best move in every situation because it forces a 50/50 every single time it's used within range. This opens up turtles (which is why he's good) and forces decisions. Before today's patch you could just spam it (5 stamina cost. Lmao) and hold it for 2 seconds and get a free top heavy or cancel it as soon as your opponent dodges and guard break them for free damage. Rinse and repeat. Warden was stupidly powerful.
Now, he can only cancel it 400ms in, meaning he can't cancel earlier or later. If he decides to hold the charge longer, you know exactly what's going to happen and can punish it. He's still strong in that he can continue to punish you using it if you choose incorrectly (400ms is still pretty fast) but he can no longer vortex you for long. People don't have to worry about constantly being stuck in a 50/50 with no stamina and either losing stamina by being bashed and getting hit twice and thrown into it again, or guard broken for dodging and thrown to the ground for a free top heavy. That's why people hated Warden, he was just too strong off of one move, that shouldn't be how any character is.
Senior Member
Shoulder bash into guard break is the only mix-up Warden has. She's a can opener, and a damn good one, but let's not pretend there's a broad set of moves outside of that guard opener. Warden is there to put pressure on opponents and force them to make mistakes. If you find you're making mistakes, then it's working. But before discussing nerfs, play as Warden against players who know what they're doing, you'll get mashed if you're careless, just like using anyone else.
With the defensive meta in the state that it is, Warden is probably the most important character. Also, an important thing to remember I think is that most dodge attacks beat shoulder mix-up. Orochi, Nobushi, PK, etc. And LB's shove > Warden's shoulder. That last bits adds a little extra to fighting LB; cancel your shoulder into top light and catch his shove. Makes Warden one of the few who can successfully open LB.
