[SUGGESTIONS] Defense too strong? Unbreakable Defense = Toxic PVP Gameplay | Forums

[Mjolnir1337]

I am wanting to continue this discussion that has been had many times over. A recent example is: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...TRONG-In-depth

Posted in the BETA feedback session. I only did 2 Betas and am now working my way up to my 2nd prestige and am becoming increasingly more aware of this topic. Defense is too strong.

Ill admit. I am not a "top tier" player... yet. That said, I am working my way up there and have played characters who have seemed to master defense to the point that it seems impossible to get around their defense. The game at "my level" of play is generally whoever attacks first, gets hit. You bait an attack, then either parry or dodge into an attack.

Most GBs I throw, are Tech'd easily... This is my weak area and frankly when I lose its because I missed a Tech. I suspect once I get this down, my win/loss rate will jump a ton.

The game is built on this premise:
Attack > GB
GB > Defense
Defense > Attack.

This makes sense. But it breaks down due to a "Tech" (Counter-GB). Because the Defense has:
Defense > Attack
Parry -> Free attack
Tech > GB

So the Attacker has no options. What WOULD Balance this out?

Several suggestions have been proposed:
- Blocking costs stamina
- "Chip" damage on attacks
Etc.

I wanted to continue this in hopes that UBI addresses this. I have to give them props on making this game. I am glad they are trying something new, but I think something is missing in this formula... It SHOULD be more of a "rock/paper/scissors" type game.. But it almost seems like not only does Rock beat scissors, if you are fast enough you can turn rock into scissors to beat paper as well. Meaning everyone throws "Rock" which = stalemate....

Ill post my thoughts below. But my question stands.

What WOULD Balance this out?

[Mjolnir1337]

As for some of MY thoughts on this matter.. A few things that could make this work.


1) Blocking not to interrupt light attack chains.
- this makes the game slightly more noob friendly.
- puts a little more pressure on defense to not miss a block.
- allows classes to set up more heavy attacks which leads me too......

2) Blocking Heavy attacks should cost stamina.
- This means purely blocking isnt the best option (most risk free) you would either want to parry (risk of wrong timing) or dodge (same thing) to avoid it. Blocking is the easiest option and requires almost no risk. Blocking Light attacks can be free. Blocking a heavy attack should cost some stamina to block it (could be based on damage #).

3) Parry no longer guarantees damage. Attacking Players should recover faster from a Parry so they can Tech or Block.
- Parry is useful to avoid the "stamina damage" when blocking heavy attacks.
- Parry is useful to drain opponents stamina and put yourself on the offensive.

4) Tech (Counter-GB) should maybe cost stamina as well. Not a lot, but some...


So NOW what you would have is that defense is still maybe marginally better than offense. The key to winning would be stamina management. If you "turtle" up being block, your stamina will slowly get whittled down each Heavy attack.

The goal would be to throw a Parry, and then mix in some Heavy attacks to completely drain someone from stamina, which then gives openings. So this would seem to require a healthy mix of both offense and defense.


#1 makes this a more "new player friendly game" by allowing light attacks to continue to chain.
#2 makes there be a cost for merely taking the "easy" way out of avoiding a heavy hit. Meaning parry/dodge have more upside but with the risk.
#3 again lessens the advantage of "turtling up" until you Parry into free damage.
#4 if you correctly apply pressure via Parry + Heavy attacks youll drain stamina to where they CANT use a Tech (creates openings for attack)

This creates more "holes" or some weaknesses that I think would be JUST enough to make it a more even play field... Pepper with light attack combos, throw a few heavy attacks mixed with A GB (forcing a tech) to drain stamina which then creates some openings.

The goal isnt to nullify defense at all. Its to make it so the game evolves from "whoever attacks first loses". INTO needing diverse strategy and reading the opponent more to win.

I also think this would make the game more FUN. Especially #1 (block not stopping light attacks).

[Mjolnir1337]

Baiting. Attack, cancel, dodge heavy/or gb, enjoy.

If you are against skilled players. Baiting doesnt do much. Most that I have played against anyways. Im well aware of using feints to cancel attacks into baiting them into attacking me. Hardly works. Only against more aggressive players which frankly, I usually just wait them out and wait till they attack...

[ExSiNz]

As for some of MY thoughts on this matter.. A few things that could make this work.


1) Blocking not to interrupt light attack chains.
- this makes the game slightly more noob friendly.
- puts a little more pressure on defense to not miss a block.
- allows classes to set up more heavy attacks which leads me too......

2) Blocking Heavy attacks should cost stamina.
- This means purely blocking isnt the best option (most risk free) you would either want to parry (risk of wrong timing) or dodge (same thing) to avoid it. Blocking is the easiest option and requires almost no risk. Blocking Light attacks can be free. Blocking a heavy attack should cost some stamina to block it (could be based on damage #).

3) Parry no longer guarantees damage. Attacking Players should recover faster from a Parry so they can Tech or Block.
- Parry is useful to avoid the "stamina damage" when blocking heavy attacks.
- Parry is useful to drain opponents stamina and put yourself on the offensive.

4) Tech (Counter-GB) should maybe cost stamina as well. Not a lot, but some...


So NOW what you would have is that defense is still maybe marginally better than offense. The key to winning would be stamina management. If you "turtle" up being block, your stamina will slowly get whittled down each Heavy attack.

The goal would be to throw a Parry, and then mix in some Heavy attacks to completely drain someone from stamina, which then gives openings. So this would seem to require a healthy mix of both offense and defense.


#1 makes this a more "new player friendly game" by allowing light attacks to continue to chain.
#2 makes there be a cost for merely taking the "easy" way out of avoiding a heavy hit. Meaning parry/dodge have more upside but with the risk.
#3 again lessens the advantage of "turtling up" until you Parry into free damage.
#4 if you correctly apply pressure via Parry + Heavy attacks youll drain stamina to where they CANT use a Tech (creates openings for attack)

This creates more "holes" or some weaknesses that I think would be JUST enough to make it a more even play field... Pepper with light attack combos, throw a few heavy attacks mixed with A GB (forcing a tech) to drain stamina which then creates some openings.

The goal isnt to nullify defense at all. Its to make it so the game evolves from "whoever attacks first loses". INTO needing diverse strategy and reading the opponent more to win.

I also think this would make the game more FUN. Especially #1 (block not stopping light attacks).

All in all not bad suggestion but let me just point out some weak points. First, ''Blocking not to interrupt light attack chains'' this will cause character like the Nobushi to easly poke in for free damage since their 3rd Light Attack is a guaranteed hit and will cause many imbalances Character Wise. It does seems better on paper but when you apply it into the game it just makes some combo too strong.

Also ''Blocking Heavy attacks should cost stamina'', I'm fine with this but, If it cost less than the opponent Heavy its useless since they would have to wait for their stamina to come back before your drained. I am unsure of the consequences if it cost more, could be a good idea to try it.


3) Parry no longer guarantees damage. Attacking Players should recover faster from a Parry so they can Tech or Block. This could be good but also could make parry worthless since Dodging would guarantee a free hit instead (And character with Dodging Heavy attack would probably take over the field).


''#4 if you correctly apply pressure via Parry + Heavy attacks youll drain stamina to where they CANT use a Tech (creates openings for attack) ''

Again I'm unsure if this is right. Since if you Parry then Heavy (Considering your changes at 3) they could parry back and make For Honor a Ping Pong match.

[Mjolnir1337]

All in all not bad suggestion but let me just point out some weak points. First, ''Blocking not to interrupt light attack chains'' this will cause character like the Nobushi to easly poke in for free damage since their 3rd Light Attack is a guaranteed hit and will cause many imbalances Character Wise. It does seems better on paper but when you apply it into the game it just makes some combo too strong.

Fair point. Never played the Nobushi so that would definitely need to be adjusted. I think it would need to adjust some light combos but overall I dont see a huge problem with this frankly... Maybe a FEW situations would need adjusting...

Also ''Blocking Heavy attacks should cost stamina'', I'm fine with this but, If it cost less than the opponent Heavy its useless since they would have to wait for their stamina to come back before your drained. I am unsure of the consequences if it cost more, could be a good idea to try it.

True, initially I thought about "what if it causes "chip damage" but IDK, that feels weird... Blocking and taking small % of damage.
I dont think it should cost more than the attack, but definitely SOME. What this does is makes it harder for you to block 1-2 heavy attacks and then go on a full offensive spree - since you would start with lower stamina. Also makes it harder to block 2-3 heavy hits and then go in for a zone or GB. You are right that it wouldnt impact the game a TON however it does add a little impact so that merely sitting behind block on a heavy attack isnt always the best approach... Combined with the light attack combos. People can pepper in more Heavy attacks in combos. Heck, you can merely make it so ALL attacks cost stamina to block. It would be based on # of damage done. So even light attacks might drain a LITTLE and heavy attacks would drain more. So if you blocked a full string of offensive combos, you might have your opponent at <10% stamina but youve got 50% yourself - which limits your offensive opportunities a bit. Especially if you want to throw an attack and then try to GB yourself.

3) Parry no longer guarantees damage. Attacking Players should recover faster from a Parry so they can Tech or Block. This could be good but also could make parry worthless since Dodging would guarantee a free hit instead (And character with Dodging Heavy attack would probably take over the field).

Very true. I HAD in there "dodging costs stamina" but removed it. That is an option or, increase the duration of a dodge so a dodge+attack now becomes blockable post light attack. It would still be a "go to" on heavy attacks which is where the feint game comes into play. Feint to bait a parry or a dodge.

The goal here was to remove "guaranteed damage" on a successful defensive ability (parry/dodge) because frankly this is the root of the problem.

''#4 if you correctly apply pressure via Parry + Heavy attacks youll drain stamina to where they CANT use a Tech (creates openings for attack) ''

Again I'm unsure if this is right. Since if you Parry then Heavy (Considering your changes at 3) they could parry back and make For Honor a Ping Pong match.

Isnt necessarily a bad thing. If two players are equally matched and constantly low stamina, itll be an interesting dynamic.... But maybe not FUN.



I mean something I also almost posted was the fact that Tech is what ruins this game frankly.

In most "fighting games" that I have played... You have attack/dodge/block/grab. Ive never seen a "counter-grab". Usually attacking IS the "counter grab" and you just need to keep distance (dodge) and attack so they cant grab.

I almost wonder if removing Tech from the game and reducing "guard break" distance where you need to stand toe to toe to someone would do the trick.. Because now the game truly does turn into a Rock/Paper/Scissors.

Then someone who is hiding behind shield, waiting to parry or dodge, you walk up to them and grab = free damage. Which might tempt them to grab, in which you bait it and go for an attack etc.

That is true rock/paper/scissors.

OR, You could merely make a Tech cost more stamina than it costs to initiate a grab. Maybe Guard Break costs NO stamina, Tech costs stamina. That way you COULD pepper someone with light+heavy attacks, get their stamina low. Once < a certain % they cant tech anymore and boom. Free grab.

Stuff like that is what this game needs IMO. Right now it just seems a good defense beats everything.

[Mjolnir1337]

Bump

[SoloAgentOwl]

How about make gb cancelable with a light attack? That way, if they decide to tech gb, they get hit with a light attack to a possible chain.