Here is the proof you need that absolute defense breaks the game | Forums

[Xanthus730]

Defense is better than offense when your defense is stronger than their offense.
In a real fight, in real life, between 2 combatants, this is usually only the case if the stronger fighter is on defense. See: guerilla warefare and attrition tactics vs larger opponents, if you want to go back to Art of War stuff.
In reality defending against attack takes better reactions that simply attacking does.

But, as others have pointed out, in this case, reality is less important than gameplay.

Gameplay wise, if defending is better both in risk AND in reward than attacking, then the gameplay will likely tend to be very slow, with both players trying to goad the other into an attack so they can use their superior defensive options.
You'l get staring matches, repeated feints into nothing, jockeying for position, and long long matches that are boring to play and boring to watch.
This kills a game.

[Dez_troi_aR]

All you people saying "what will happen when people get good????!!!!! OMG THEY WILL BLOCK EVERYTHING!!!! " need to be reminded that there are starplayers who had hundreds (!) of hours of playtime during test which were not public. YOu can check them out on their twitchstreams (handheldBrando, Willaguy, Mathias etc) . When they fight each other, they do NOT just sit back and stare at each other. The gameplay works on higher skill levels, though different issues appear, but nothing like the "gamebreakers" you guys keep proclaiming.

The reason why this video is not a proof for broken defense mechanics is, that the warden is not really plaing defensive. Feinting doesnt work if there is no attempt to parry.

One thing becomes clear, though : If there is a time-out, the player with the higher health should be declared winner. That would increase the pressure to take action.

[Eji1700]

All you people saying "what will happen when people get good????!!!!! OMG THEY WILL BLOCK EVERYTHING!!!! " need to be reminded that there are starplayers who had hundreds (!) of hours of playtime during test which were not public. YOu can check them out on their twitchstreams (handheldBrando, Willaguy, Mathias etc) . When they fight each other, they do NOT just sit back and stare at each other. The gameplay works on higher skill levels, though different issues appear, but nothing like the "gamebreakers" you guys keep proclaiming.

The reason why this video is not a proof for broken defense mechanics is, that the warden is not really plaing defensive. Feinting doesnt work if there is no attempt to parry.

One thing becomes clear, though : If there is a time-out, the player with the higher health should be declared winner. That would increase the pressure to take action.

If not parrying makes feinting not work, then don't parry. Win one match, then lame out the rest.

[SerNorman]

he must have concluded, as i have, that attaking the orochi is a death sentence because they get free damage just for sidestepping

[Xanthus730]

Feinting still works if you attempt to parry. You can cancel a baited parry and still have enough time to block/parry/deflect the followup.

[Mege92]

Say what you will about Warden's shoulder bash cancel into GB, but that's exactly what this game needs to overcome total defense. It forces a 50/50.

[Eji1700]

Say what you will about Warden's shoulder bash cancel into GB, but that's exactly what this game needs to overcome total defense. It forces a 50/50.

Whats sorta dumb is that if you make the workaround to hyper defense only attack based stuff (shoulder vortex/up light+zone mixup) then guard break is still useless as anything other than a punish, which seems dumb.


But other than that yeah i mostly agree. It'd help if the shoulder charge vortex didn't loop into itself forever, but that could be fixed by having a little more stamina cost on the moves rather than making it so cheap on stamina.

In fact what REALLY bugs me about this game is that since offense takes stamina, you should have much much much stronger offensive options. You have an innate mehcanic to prevent too much ******** in the stamina bar, as the one thing it does do effectively is stop you from attacking.

[l_Azure_l]

Say what you will about Warden's shoulder bash cancel into GB, but that's exactly what this game needs to overcome total defense. It forces a 50/50.

Not so sure about that. IMO, it's the combination of parry is so easy to do while the same goes for blocking and dodging to counter attack. Attacking is too hard and too punishable. I think they should focus fine tune on that instead of going for the guessing game route. This game has so unique gameplay mechanic. It can be something entirely different from the traditional fighting game. I just hope they can pull it off.

[THEPH0NECOMPANY]

This is what my thought was as well. Chip Damage.

Also, Orochi doesnt have unblockables, AND you can still parry them. Its easier to do that Tech a GB (IMO).

Chip Damage would MAYBE fix this, however it would have to be finely balanced. Fact is Parry is pretty easy to do and even with Chip damage, if all you did was exchange chip damage with the Parry+damage the defender still wins.

This is where part of me wonders if defense should also cost stamina. But then you would have to re-tool stamina pools and regen amounts.


Right now:
Attack> GB
GB>Defense
Defense>Attack

Its a good "rock, paper, scissors" game. HOWEVER Tech>GB as well.

So the person on defense has:
Defense/Tech
Which is > Attack/GB

Which is why Defense wins.

So the only solution I see is to still have Parry stamina drain the attacker, but NOT create an "opening" in which you can strike an opponent for free damage. So what this means is the defender cannot play defensive forever, he will eventually have to come out of his shell to win. Not just Parry-> free damage. So Parry shouldnt lock the attacker in "frames" which would allow him to defend a hit, OR tech a GB after being parried.

Which now makes it a stalemate. Add Chip damage and now the defender needs to "poop or get off the pot" so to speak.

This came from another thread saying the same thing here (this isnt me BTW though I do agree):
"I think Making it so light attacks are not pushed back on block and removing any damage reward for parries would go a long way. That way you can continue your attack chain even when your opponent blocks without feeling like you were shut down(good for new players).

But if you choose you can parry an attack in the chain to push the attacker off you and start your own offense but not gain damage for remaining defensive unless your opponent fails to block or avoid your attack after you parry. Also if your opponent wasn't watching their stamina during their offense attacking your guard constantly and you parry them at the right time to deplete the remainder of their stamina and cause a knockdown that would also be good so it forces the attacker to manage his stamina while on offense and if they happen to do one attack too many they could end up being parried and knocked down."

AGREED^^^^^
If you base it off rock paper scissor wouldn't the solution for this be
Currently light attack>GB, Heavy attack<GB with timing Attack>defense with skill
Currently GB>Defense, GB<Defense with timing
Currently Defense> light attack Defense=attack with timing, Defense <heavy attack, Chip damage,

the problem in the balance of equations is Defense=Attack not Defense>attack with skill, its a simple problem with a simple solution balancing chip damage with stamina drain on parry

I dont see the point of balancing anything else out until this change is made as characters would have to be balanced anyway

For those of you who say the system is fine the way it is,
If the devs were to program god-tier bots that were to never lose imagine what they would do, right now
A. Tech every GB
B. Parry every attack
C. Never attack, or feint because they could be punished and potentially killed by Parry punish, or GB (on a heavy attack)
2 of these bots would just circle each other all game, never attacking for fear of punish

If they removed Parry health punish

A. Tech every GB
B. Parry Every attack
C. Attack to test defense and respond accordingly
2 of these bots would.... well
A. trade light attacks at close range,
B. Take turns parrying each other over and over
either way it will always stalemate as they would switch to perfect defense at low health but at least they attack each other

Now this system isnt perfect either as heavy attacks dont really fit in the equation at high level except as whiffed GB punish or wall throw punish but its better than the current system and im sure there is a simple fix for this as well

Edit: Im hoping the devs already realized this during betas and are working on a fix currently, as betas were really close to release date, and that the reason they havent patched it yet is that they are working on the balance changes to every problem that happens after this......

If they arent well.... Working as intended

[Hawksw0rd]

Looking at History, most wars were won by the defenders and not the attacker (most, not all). When you do Martial Arts, you are taught that the best offense is defense. When you read 'The Art of War' you will find out, that the best way to win a war (or fight) is a surprise or well prepared defense.

I am not proud to say, that I took part in two wars, but also have no shame in saying that I also was trained in Martial Arts. That is what I learned... but maybe in other places I would've been taught that offense is the best offense... I don't know. Common sense is strategy, and strategy tells you that defending is more effective than attacking in most cases, save a few exceptions.

I rest my case.

First of all, thank you for serving.

Secondly, here is a difference between a war and a fight. Logistics come into play during war, and tend to be more lengthy in duration. A fight is intense in the second and moments, and often serves the attacker. Unlike the game, blocking strikes is not an effortless thing, it is bruising and fractures. My martial teachings mostly use defense as a way to swing into an attacking position.

Side note, they say an opponent has you figured out after three strikes. Make of that what you will.