Side Dash Attacks are too powerful | Forums

[Inconsistent7]

Attack: Any offensive maneuver (excluding Guard Break) including unblockables
Guard Break: Self-explanatory
Patience: To block, dodge, deflect or parry

The core of this game's balance revolves around the simple rock paper scissors of
Attack beats Guard Break
Guard Break beats Patience
Patience beats Attack

Obviously, there are many more layers of mechanics, depth and complexity that make it less straightforward than that, but that's the foundation.

A side dash attack consists of a dodge (patience) followed immediately by an attack.
If your opponent attacks into the dodge, they will lose the trade.
If your opponent guard breaks into the attack, they will lose the trade.

On the other hand
If your opponent guard breaks into the dodge, they will win the trade.
If your opponent is patient against the attack, they will win the trade.


On the surface, it seems perfectly balanced and functional, sure.

The problem here is that the dodge is entirely too effective, too efficient, devoid of risk, and TOO EASY to use both proactively and re-actively as a nearly universal defense mechanism.

It doesn't matter if you dodge before, during, or after your opponent's attack. The MAJORITY of the time, the dodge will counter the attack successfully without nearly enough regard for timing or direction.

What this means is that assassins can use the side dash attack both proactively and re-actively without concern (relatively).
In contrast, even an uninterruptible attack doesn't offer the damage prevention of a side dash attack
In contrast, a parry requires both precise timing and directional accuracy.
Sure the reward of parrying properly can be substantially greater than that of a dash attack, but the risk of mistiming a parry is greater BY FAR than the risk of side dash attacking prematurely.

Furthermore. . .

The transition into such a swift attack makes the window of availability for it to be countered by guard break terribly small. Even when I know my opponent is going to use a side dash attack (because all assassins do half the time is spam their dodge attacks), If they use their dash even a quarter of a second before I attempt to counter it with guard break, they will transition into an attack before my guard break resolves. I lose the trade.



Assassins (and Kensei) can spam side dash attacks to their heart's content, denying their opponent the option to play aggressively without any of the effort or skill required to produce the same result with blocks, parries, or standard dodges.

Blocks, parries, deflects, standard dodges, etc. can also punish aggression just as well, but the difference is that they require much more exact timing, directional accuracy, and above all: PATIENCE. None of these things can be done proactively. You MUST wait for your opponent to strike before you can properly utilize any of these tools.

SIDE DASH ATTACKS ARE THE ONLY ATTACKS IN THE GAME THAT CAN POTENTIALLY COUNTER EVERY ATTACK IN THE GAME.



I'm not saying it can't be countered. It isn't exactly breaking the game, but it's toxic in an otherwise respectably skill oriented competitive environment.

• Some zone and side attacks have a wide enough arc and/or secondary properties that demand a certain degree of timing of direction from the dodges, and they will succeed against a proactive side dash attack on occasion, but if the side dash is used defensively, it will still win every time.

• Guard break will successfully counter the dodge phase of the technique, but the transition into an attack makes that window of opportunity frustratingly small.

• Obviously at the end of the day it's an Attack like any other, which is countered by Patience. You can block, parry, dodge, and deflect them like anything else but this translates to you being denied the option play with any degree of agression.
  If you're quick, you can even attack into the direction they're dodging AFTER they start their dodge and interrupt their attack but it's up to YOU to keep track of what direction they're dodging, and skillfully place an attack in the small window available. It goes without saying that this falls into the "Patience" category.

I don't blame people for spamming it, because it's a move worthy of spam.
I blame you, Ubisoft, for allowing this to be such a viable tactic.


Sidebar - If you ever think,"This guy is spamming guard break" take a moment to ask yourself, "Am I spamming dodge?"

[Robbeeeen]

Dodge-attacks lose to feints.

Feint top-heavy, enemy commits to dodge-attack. Ur advantage: you see very quickly where the attack will come from: the direction of the dodge tells you before the red arrow shows you. If they dodge left, they must attack from left. Result: easy to parry.

Pay more attention to where the character dodges to and less on the red reticule and you will have a much easier time vs those attacks.

[Sawa963]

Dodge-attacks lose to feints.

Feint top-heavy, enemy commits to dodge-attack. Ur advantage: you see very quickly where the attack will come from: the direction of the dodge tells you before the red arrow shows you. If they dodge left, they must attack from left. Result: easy to parry.

Pay more attention to where the character dodges to and less on the red reticule and you will have a much easier time vs those attacks.

This is correct. Most people don't realize that the attack will always come from the same direction as the dodge. It is very easy to parry when people abuse it.

https://youtu.be/QxQIyiqJCrA?t=7m

[ReJaCr]

Dodge-attacks lose to feints.

Feint top-heavy, enemy commits to dodge-attack. Ur advantage: you see very quickly where the attack will come from: the direction of the dodge tells you before the red arrow shows you. If they dodge left, they must attack from left. Result: easy to parry.

Pay more attention to where the character dodges to and less on the red reticule and you will have a much easier time vs those attacks.

This 100%

[pongkrit03]

In my opinion, it is a bit too powerful but not totally OP. I considered myself as Raider's player (60-70 winrate) but after I switch to peacekeeper, it is like totally boost up. I hardly lose to anyone. Side dodge attack is mostly no risk, if used after enemy's attack animation. BUT, if you use before enemy attack, it will easily get blocked or parried.

Someone said feint to bait side dodge, I have tried while I was playing Raider but it is too risky because you don't know if he gonna attack or side dash attack and even you can successfully feint, most of the time you can only block. You can't parry. The animation is too slow to do so.

Only effective way you can counter side dash attack (at close range) is GUARD BREAK, I have tested it and it worked for Orochi and Peacekeeper. You will catch them before they commit attack after dash. Berserker unfortunately, his special attack comes out too fast. You can only block.

However, using GB to counter side dash needs prediction beforehand. If he already side dash, you can only block.

In my opinion, They should remove i frame of dodge, so you have to dodge at the right direction (opposite of enemy attack direction).

[Inconsistent7]

Dodge-attacks lose to feints.

Feint top-heavy, enemy commits to dodge-attack. Ur advantage: you see very quickly where the attack will come from: the direction of the dodge tells you before the red arrow shows you. If they dodge left, they must attack from left. Result: easy to parry.

Pay more attention to where the character dodges to and less on the red reticule and you will have a much easier time vs those attacks.

I feel like you guys are just skimming through my post and making a half-assed response without realizing that what you're saying is redundant and irrelevant to the point I'm making.

The very first thing I said is that Patience beats Attack. There is no attack that can't be defended against if you are properly Patient.

Yes, I know you can feint to bait out side dashes if your opponent falls for it.

Yes, I know you can parry them, I specifically said that in my post.

That's not the issue.

The issue is that these are ATTACKS that counter every other ATTACK in the game. The result is that if you and your opponent attack at the same time, you will always lose. This FORCES you to be Patient (Dodge, block, parry, etc.) with very little effort on their behalf. THAT is the problem.

Obviously if you just sit around and play defensively you can counter any and everything offensive in this game. People that abuse side dashes can do this much more easily than classes that are forced to rely on parrys instead, and they can do it proactively IN ADDITION to doing it re-actively.

Please actually read my post in its entirety before you give your 2 cents.

I know how to stop them. Of course they can be easily stopped.
That doesn't change the fact that the dodge is entirely too effective, too efficient, devoid of risk, and TOO EASY to use both proactively and re-actively as a nearly universal defense mechanism.

It doesn't have to break the game to be overpowered when compared to similar tools.

[Robbeeeen]

I feel like you guys are just skimming through my post and making a half-assed response without realizing that what you're saying is redundant and irrelevant to the point I'm making.

The very first thing I said is that Patience beats Attack. There is no attack that can't be defended against if you are properly Patient.

Yes, I know you can feint to bait out side dashes if your opponent falls for it.

Yes, I know you can parry them, I specifically said that in my post.

That's not the issue.

The issue is that these are ATTACKS that counter every other ATTACK in the game. The result is that if you and your opponent attack at the same time, you will always lose. This FORCES you to be Patient (Dodge, block, parry, etc.) with very little effort on their behalf. THAT is the problem.

Obviously if you just sit around and play defensively you can counter any and everything offensive in this game. People that abuse side dashes can do this much more easily than classes that are forced to rely on parrys instead, and they can do it proactively IN ADDITION to doing it re-actively.

Please actually read my post in its entirety before you give your 2 cents.

I know how to stop them. Of course they can be easily stopped.
That doesn't change the fact that the dodge is entirely too effective, too efficient, devoid of risk, and TOO EASY to use both proactively and re-actively as a nearly universal defense mechanism.

It doesn't have to break the game to be overpowered when compared to similar tools.

Why is it a problem? It forces you to play patiently against an aggressive archetype. Isn't that kind of the aim of having different classes with different skillsets?
It's not a completely risk-free mechanic and if punished properly it is quite severe. High risk, high reward. Good design.

[Inconsistent7]

Why is it a problem? It forces you to play patiently against an aggressive archetype. Isn't that kind of the aim of having different classes with different skillsets?
It's not a completely risk-free mechanic and if punished properly it is quite severe. High risk, high reward. Good design.

Because it isn't just aggression. It's probably the most effective form of defensive aggression in the game and its entirely too easy to use.

They should be punished for mistiming and misdirecting their dodges more often. They shouldn't be able to just mindlessly throw dodges whenever and however they feel like and only be punished for it if their opponent is decidedly patient.

One simple, skill-less attack shouldn't be able to counter every other attack in the game (including itself) with minimal effort.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be able to do what it was does, but god damn it shouldn't be so easy.

[Mr.MokMok]

Think of it this way, guys. In all other forms of defense, you have to time a parry in order to respond with damage. Dodge is much more forgiving than a parry and guarantees damage on those who have dodge attacks.

You can even dodge the wrong freaking direction and avoid dmg and secure your own because of iframes.

[VanBaal42]

This is correct. Most people don't realize that the attack will always come from the same direction as the dodge. It is very easy to parry when people abuse it.

https://youtu.be/QxQIyiqJCrA?t=7m

But didn't hit the nobushi's dash+ heavy on the oppsite side?