Gamebreaking mechanics at high-level-play: Defensive Invulnerability | Forums

[Ryumanjisen]

This will make the "Heavy" classes unplayable. Swing-times of light-attacks or too long for them.

Why? If adjust properly, any light attack would still break through the gb. But you could be right, perhaps the best (and simpler solution) is just adjusting the window for the gb break.

Heavy attacks cause chip damage. Also Bezerskers Gb throw causes a small amount of damage as well.

Are we sure heavy attacks do chip damage with no gear on? Because "block defense" and "attack on block" numbers are even if you don't equip any kind of gear.

[Robbeeeen]

Why? If adjust properly, any light attack would still break through the gb. But you could be right, perhaps the best (and simpler solution) is just adjusting the window for the gb break.

Light-attacks cannot be cancelled. If the only way to protect against a GB is to light-attack in advance or be out of range, then heavy classes will get parried every time with their slow light-attack swing or eat every GB thrown at them.

[Kroma-]

two points many people are missing:
3) Feints are telegraphed and can be told apart from regular heavy attacks. With enough practice a player can tell when another player performs an actual heavy attack or a feint. This is due to the fact that the red reticule starts to blink when an attack is parriable - it does not do this when a player is feinting. And yes, it is very possible to get this right every time - many players already get this right the majority of time and the game is barely a weekend old. Imagine pro-players after weeks or months of practice.

4) Falling for a feint is cancellable in time to block an attack. EVEN if a player falls for a feint, the startup of the heavy attack that was supposed to be a parry is cancellable in time to perform a block or parry on the followup attack of the enemy.
Scenario: Player A feints a heavy attack. Player B falls for the feint and presses heavy attack himself, wanting to parry. Player A cancels his heavy attack and follows up with light attack. Player B sees the very noticeable cancel-animation and reacts in time to block the light attack. Even is the light attack comes from a different direction.

I m sorry but you are a bit wrong,
3- The feint window is before the reticule starts to blink but the opponent still see a red one not blinking until the feint actually goes on. But you are right in the way that you should wait before parrying, just wait until the red reticule start to blink, and if it it is a light attack then just block it. So the best way to parry the safest way possible is always trying to parry at the last moment sine you will either block the attack if you are too late or parry it. This may not be the case for assassin everytime since they got a timing on their block.
4- You are both wrong and right about it, it depend on the timing of your feint. The feint is not instant, there are starting frame from the heavy you cant instantly cancel an attack. That is when you can get hit. It only work if you don t get hit right away, which can be the case against most character but a fast character with fast light or a zone attack can still hit you during the feint frames.
So it is more likely that good player will apply the 3- and wait at the last moment to parry, it is way safer.

Otherwise, i agree with you that defense is strong right now, and it is ****ing hard to beat a good blocking player, you can only just wait for him to attack and counter it. But in a sense if you could pass defense easily why bother defending then ? I think it is pretty much balanced, you have to force your opponent to attack if you want to beat him, or bait his block with mixup. I just think classes should have more mix up to deal against good defense rather than nerfing said defense.

[Robbeeeen]

I m sorry but you are a bit wrong,
3- The feint window is before the reticule starts to blink but the opponent still see a red one not blinking until the feint actually goes on. But you are right in the way that you should wait before parrying, just wait until the red reticule start to blink, and if it it is a light attack then just block it. So the best way to parry the safest way possible is always trying to parry at the last moment sine you will either block the attack if you are too late or parry it. This may not be the case for assassin everytime since they got a timing on their block.
4- You are both wrong and right about it, it depend on the timing of your feint. The feint is not instant, there are starting frame from the heavy you cant instantly cancel an attack. That is when you can get hit by an heavy. If you fail the parry frame just before getting hit, feinting the attack will still fail. It only work if you really fail your parry like by a lot, if you started your heavy at the same time or before the opponent start to strike.
So the 4- is just a stupid scenario since good player will never try to parry too soon, or they will get hit, you can only do that with conqueror since heavy attack can be charged and thus you can still block even if you fail your parry frame.
So it is more likely that good player will apply the 3- and wait at the last moment to parry, it is way safer.

Otherwise, i agree with you that defense is strong right now, and it is ****ing hard to beat a good blocking player, you can only just wait for him to attack and counter it. But in a sense if you could pass defense easily why bother defending then ? I think it is almost balanced, and you have to force your opponent to attack if you want to beat him. Maybe make parry more harder by making feint better ( more cancel frames possible, you should be able to cancel the attack until the red reticule start to glow which is not the case, the cancel cant be extended more than a few frames and so the 3- apply and your will never get baited. ).

3) What I meant is that you can press your "parry" button only when the reticule blinks. You will NEVER fall for a feint that way. Doing that is easily possible within human reaction time, since only heavy attacks can be feinted. If light attacks would be feintable, the story would be a bit different.

4) This is not what I meant. What I mean is that if you fall for a feint and initiate a failed parry, you can cancel that parry (because its essentially a heavy-attack) and still block whatever followup the feinter is doing. It is essentially a fail-safe, if you react too soon on your parry - you can still correct your mistake by cancelling your failed parry into a block.

[Wrander]

They have to increase the ammount and effectivness of mixups you can do in the offense. Attacking different sides and mixing them up with heavy attacks, throws, and unblockables should create something between a reaction and mindgamefight like for example in street fighter. At the same time defending shouldn't be so advantegous leading into many direct hits. Defending should create momentum to do your own offense, preassure and mixups.

And revenge mode feels imo like the worst solution for fighting multiple enemies. Just dosen't feel right espacially when you can get it even faster with better gear.

[Ryumanjisen]

Light-attacks cannot be cancelled. If the only way to protect against a GB is to light-attack in advance or be out of range, then heavy classes will get parried every time with their slow light-attack swing or eat every GB thrown at them.

You could still beat a gb countering it with another. You would have to do it right at the same time your opponent initiatie it. In other words, you would have to predict it, not react to it. That's the key problem here.

I m sorry but you are a bit wrong,
3- The feint window is before the reticule starts to blink but the opponent still see a red one not blinking until the feint actually goes on. But you are right in the way that you should wait before parrying, just wait until the red reticule start to blink, and if it it is a light attack then just block it. So the best way to parry the safest way possible is always trying to parry at the last moment sine you will either block the attack if you are too late or parry it. This may not be the case for assassin everytime since they got a timing on their block.
4- You are both wrong and right about it, it depend on the timing of your feint. The feint is not instant, there are starting frame from the heavy you cant instantly cancel an attack. That is when you can get hit by an heavy. If you fail the parry frame just before getting hit, feinting the attack will still fail. It only work if you really fail your parry like by a lot, if you started your heavy at the same time or before the opponent start to strike.
So the 4- is just a stupid scenario since good player will never try to parry too soon, or they will get hit, you can only do that with conqueror since heavy attack can be charged and thus you can still block even if you fail your parry frame.
So it is more likely that good player will apply the 3- and wait at the last moment to parry, it is way safer.

Otherwise, i agree with you that defense is strong right now, and it is ****ing hard to beat a good blocking player, you can only just wait for him to attack and counter it. But in a sense if you could pass defense easily why bother defending then ? I think it is almost balanced, and you have to force your opponent to attack if you want to beat him. Maybe make parry more harder by making feint better ( more cancel frames possible, you should be able to cancel the attack until the red reticule start to glow which is not the case, the cancel cant be extended more than a few frames and so the 3- apply and your will never get baited. ).

What would happen if not you or your opponent want to attack? The game would end on a tie.

[TCTF_SWAT]

Yes all heavy attacks deal chip damage. I was fiddling around with a friend in custom duels (no gear stats either) and heavies deal chip damage. It's not alot but it's there. The berserkers GB throw also deals small damage. The only one too all other throws deal no damage. Lights deal no chip either.

[Ryumanjisen]

Yes all heavy attacks deal chip damage. I was fiddling around with a friend in custom duels (no gear stats either) and heavies deal chip damage. It's not alot but it's there. The berserkers GB throw also deals small damage. The only one too all other throws deal no damage. Lights deal no chip either.

Good to know, thanks for the tip. Then another way to prevent this would be going with the traditions: make the one with most life wins when the time is over, instead of a tie.

[Kroma-]

4) This is not what I meant. What I mean is that if you fall for a feint and initiate a failed parry, you can cancel that parry (because its essentially a heavy-attack) and still block whatever followup the feinter is doing. It is essentially a fail-safe, if you react too soon on your parry - you can still correct your mistake by cancelling your failed parry into a block.

And feinting is not instant like i said you got some vulnerability frame where you can get hit. Just try to parry an attack too soon and feint it, you will still get hit if you feinted too close from getting hit. So what you said is not true in every scenario. I edited my post to be more clear but it was a bit too late

Anyway your points are valid, still i think nerfing defense is not the solution, you should be able to be invincible if you are a god, but character should have more mixup available to beat such defense. Like the warden shoulder bash mixup which is the best mixup to get through defense, still you can avoid it, other mixup looks bad in comparison, thats is why good defense is too easy to achieve.

[TCTF_SWAT]

Good to know, thanks for the tip. Then another way to prevent this would be going with the traditions: make the one with most life wins when the time is over, instead of a tie.

This could change come the 14th. So I advise grab a buddy and hit the lab. Fill up your head with knowledge. You'll be way ahead of the game and the community that way.

There are some things that I would like changed as well. Such as if tow players Gb eachother then it should end in a tech AND the getting teched does not allow you to fall into hazards. Also DOt damage shouldn't kill either. Give em' the magic pixel. It takes roughly 5 seconds for health to START regen (when on your last bar of health). then it takes roughly 2 seconds to fill back up from the magic pixel area. A PK's bleed lasts 8 seconds. So in total that's 15 seconds of not being able to regen that last bar of health. But you can rest assured that you won't die from bleed. But now you gotta worry about chip damage.