How to negate the "Never Attack First" Meta | Forums

[Kroma-]

What about,

Parry light attack / zone attack = free GB ( since it is harder )
Parry heavy attack = stagger that can secure a free light attack only, almost like if you block a light
Increase dmg from blocked heavy ( like half a light attack dmg or more )

[Pariah695]

Except the video is an Orochi... without a shoulder bash.

That's why most characters are worthless in this broken game.

[Ryumanjisen]

Feint into an unreactable attack like Warden's zone attack. That will eventually(almost immediately) stop working. Then see my earlier post about the Warden's shoulder bash.

I saw it. And I'm not against a rock/paper/scissors game. Most fighting games are that: mind games.

My main gripe here is that not all the characters have the tool to get into that guessing game. Kensei, Peacekeeper (her lights can be blocked with enough reflexes), Nobushi (the kick can be easily dodged and, as far as I know, can't be canceled)... they can't force their way into a perfectly timed defense.

[Pariah695]

I saw it. And I'm not against a rock/paper/scissors game. Most fighting games are that: mind games.

My main gripe here is that not all the characters have the tool to get into that guessing game. Kensei, Peacekeeper (her lights can be blocked with enough reflexes), Nobushi (the kick can be easily dodged and, as far as I know, can't be canceled)... they can't force their way into a perfectly timed defense.

I think it's a problem that at the highest level, the game devolves into nothing but a rock, paper, scissors. Mind games are crucial to fighting games, but that's not the only thing they boil down to.

[TouchFluffyTail]

The problem its you nerf the base parry/defelction removing the stun-effect guess what will happen ?

NOBODY will play other characters than warlord/orochi/zerker and peacemaker, becouse those characters have secure parry/deflections combos making the problem even worse.

the game needs to put some penalities like you get 1-hit the next one can only be blocked or dodged, that would fix some parry spam and reward to being more agressive but its just a idea.

feint could be faster and make it to be universal to every move (zerker need more useful and unique stuff anyway) so its not just "oh this guy will feint becouse its doing heavys"


im glad by the amount of attention this thread got becouse this a huge problem in this type of game: blade symphony, chilvary (no 360° spins exploits) and mount blade goes to my mind...

[Ryumanjisen]

I think it's a problem that at the highest level, the game devolves into nothing but a rock, paper, scissors. Mind games are crucial to fighting games, but that's not the only thing they boil down to.

Of course not. There are footsies, which one can argue it's also another kind of mind game. And there's execution, but at high level play practically all players have their moves perfected to the point. Sure, you see a dropped combo sometimes, but it's the exception, not the rule.

But some FG are almost purely mind games. Tekken, as far as I've experienced it (not my main game, but I've had my fair share of Tekken tournaments) is practically a speed up game of rock-paper-scissors. Some are not, however: take Marvel VS. Capcom 3, where execution is the main skill you need to play it.

But i digress: mind games are a fundamental part of fighting games. For Honor would benefit for implementing more those kind of mind games. And right now, with the state of the game and the focus on defense, it's practically impossible.

[Pariah695]

Footsies are absolutely mind games, but they're not rock, paper, scissors. They're not just simple 33% guesses that you need to make over and over. They're more complex because there are dozens of options that are viable. Fighting games also have many other skills than simply mind games and execution.

Risk taking, you've already made the read. You know he's what he's going to do. But do you block it and get decent punish, or take the risk and parry (In a game where parries are actually hard to pull of) and get big punish?

There's also the actual process of getting to the mind game, gathering data. Being perceptive of how your opponent plays so you can start getting in their head. That doesn't exist in For Honor because it's just R,P,S. It's just a random guess the first couple of times.

There's adaptability. Now that you're opponent is in your head, can you change up your strategy and shake him off? Can't really do that in R,P,S. You can just play a different thing.

Resource management with meter, of course. You have to think about whether it's worth spending your meter to do certain things or if you should hold on to it for a better time.

Mind games are fundamental, they're what truly separate good players from great ones. But they're not the only things fighting games are about.

[Vakris_One]

If you go for the guardbreak, they can react and counter it. If you go for a light or a heavy, they can react and block. If they doesn't parry, you can't bait it with a feint.

I'm curious. You've seen Flatlander's video: what will you do to break that Warden's defense?

Took a look at the video. Eifel is very good, he's watching very closely which stance indicators come up on his screen and reacting quickly to them and is able to calmly time the guardbreak counters as well when they come. Very impressive focus of mind and reflexes. He makes it look easy but it's not.

The Orochi isn't actually helping himself by rapidly flicking in between stances. The Warden player is too experienced to get flummoxed by that - he's not really paying that much attention to the stance indicator on the Orochi's character because he knows the Orochi is trying to fake him out, like trying to hypnotise him and jumble his senses. Instead the Warden is paying the most attention to where a red indicator is going to show up on his screen and reacts immediately to that.

Instead you should make him pay more attention to your character's stance by slowing down and also alternating between fast flicking and slower more methodical stance changes. That way you're forcing him to concentrate a little more on you and a little less on waiting for the red indicators to pop up on his screen. The Orochi is also not using his side sweeps at all and is not mixing up his attacks much with light, heavy, dodge and dodge strikes. He mainly seems to be using his slower heavy attacks and feinting. You need to be more unpredictable than that to catch a player of Eifel's experience off-guard.

What I would do as an Orochi or Kensei:
Attack less. Or to be more precise I'd choose my moments more carefully. Try to build a false pattern for the Warden to predict and then switch it up and go nuts and then back again. The Warden is expecting me to go super aggressive and attack and feint constantly. I'd play more into the mind game aspect of the encounter. I'd dodge about a little, feint, back away, throw some light strikes, do some dodge strikes (not too worried about him blocking them unless he starts parrying). I'd stop attacking, come in really close to him and stop or circle for a while see if he tries a guardbreak.

I'd break target lock and walk around him, maybe even turn my back to him, all the while keeping my camera on him. If he takes the bait I punish with an immediate target lock and dodge strike. If he doesn't I pick a moment to spontaneously go aggressive, throw hits, feints, guardbreaks, then back off. Then come back in again and throw some light attacks, try a feint, do not try a full heavy hit, then back off. Then back in again but this time I don't attack at all. See if he reacts. Then continue to flip up my tactics.

Hopefully by now I've taught him that I don't use guardbreaks much or at all. Well, now would be the time to walk up to him without target lock, ever mindful that he could strike me or guardbreak me, and try a spontaneous lock and guardbreak instead of an attack.

TLDR: I'd try to acclimatise him to a false pattern instead of trying to blitz him as he is paying far too much attention to that tactic. I want to pressure him into making a mistake not by attacking/feinting relentlessy but by being conservative and choosing my moments. The goal would be to rattle him and try to make him second guess himself. If I can't achieve that then he deserves the win.

[Ryumanjisen]

TLDR: I'd try to acclimatise him to a false pattern instead of trying to blitz him as he is paying far too much attention to that tactic. I want to pressure him into making a mistake not by attacking/feinting relentlessy but by being conservative and choosing my moments. The goal would be to rattle him and try to make him second guess himself. If I can't achieve that then he deserves the win.

You are correct, in fact that's what I'd do to: force your opponent to make false reads and punish him for hit.

But that's not possible in this game. because your opponent is not reading you, he's REACTING to you. Doesn't matter if you're predictable or not, since he's not predicting anything, he doesn't need to pay attention to your stance since he can switch his guard to block you. You can't play mind games if you can't trick your opponent. That's the problem in For Honor: you have enough time to react to anything. That's the point of the discussion here.

On one thing we agree, though: he didn't use his unblockable. But I suposse it's because that move always attack in the same side (right, if memory serves well). The Warden only need to keep his guard right and, as soon as they see an attack from other direction, adjust his guard.

In any case, thanks for the extensive answer.

[Flatlander57]

You are correct, in fact that's what I'd do to: force your opponent to make false reads and punish him for hit.

But that's not possible in this game. because your opponent is not reading you, he's REACTING to you. Doesn't matter if you're predictable or not, since he's not predicting anything, he doesn't need to pay attention to your stance since he can switch his guard to block you. You can't play mind games if you can't trick your opponent. That's the problem in For Honor: you have enough time to react to anything. That's the point of the discussion here.

On one thing we agree, though: he didn't use his unblockable. But I suposse it's because that move always attack in the same side (right, if memory serves well). The Warden only need to keep his guard right and, as soon as they see an attack from other direction, adjust his guard.

In any case, thanks for the extensive answer.

I suppose when you say Unblockable you mean the quick zone-attack that Orochi has. I used it a few times, it landed once, but afterwards Eiffel started just resting his block on that side, and only moving it when I attacked other directions. I even attempted to Feint left and then use the zone-attack on the right and he still blocked it.

Since this game allows 100% reactions (like you said). There is no reason to try to "confuse" the enemy. If they remain calm and know how the game works, they can simply block and counter every offensive attempt in the game.

I am glad the video me and Eiffel made is helping the discussion, we really like this game but are very worried about it's future.