A detailed analysis of unblockable "body charges", and the coded issue they have | Forums

[Gethseme]

Warden can get a free GB on an opponent's back dash if the Warden cancels late (to get the full range of charge before GB), but a back roll will avoid the GB. Problem is that you need the space to back roll, and it isn't practical to back roll every time you see the charge due to stamina and space requirements.

At that point after the backdash, if they've charged up, I have enough time to side dash or backroll. Him charging it up gives more time to react, and thus that has plenty of counterplay. I'm more talking about short charging. Short charging SB can be backdashed out of. If you back dash and they charge it, you'll have more time to react after the backdash, whether that means you need to roll or attack or sidedash.

[default91]

At that point after the backdash, if they've charged up, I have enough time to side dash or backroll. Him charging it up gives more time to react, and thus that has plenty of counterplay. I'm more talking about short charging. Short charging SB can be backdashed out of. If you back dash and they charge it, you'll have more time to react after the backdash, whether that means you need to roll or attack or sidedash.

I think there's some confusion here about the terms being used with the Warden's short/long charging and delayed cancels.

You can do a short charge (not hold the button to "charge" the "body charge"), and cancel the "body charge" early so that you don't gain any distance from the charge, and just guard break immediately. You can also gain more distance on the short charge by cancelling the short charge late and get a guard break at the end of the travel distance (which reaches farther than the short charge would, due to the GB reach forward). You don't need to do a fully charged Warden "body charge" to be able to guard break a back dashing opponent. You just need to cancel late.

For example, if the Warden hits an opponent with the typical double light attack and follows with the short charge combo, but cancels the short charge combo late, then the Warden will be able to successfully guard break the opponent if the opponent does a back dash in response to the charge (even if it is an immediate reaction to it).

[Wardensc2]

I think there's some confusion here about the terms being used with the Warden's short/long charging and delayed cancels.

You can do a short charge (not hold the button to "charge" the "body charge"), and cancel the "body charge" early so that you don't gain any distance from the charge, and just guard break immediately. You can also gain more distance on the short charge by cancelling the short charge late and get a guard break at the end of the travel distance (which reaches farther than the short charge would, due to the GB reach forward). You don't need to do a fully charged Warden "body charge" to be able to guard break a back dashing opponent. You just need to cancel late.

For example, if the Warden hits an opponent with the typical double light attack and follows with the short charge combo, but cancels the short charge combo late, then the Warden will be able to successfully guard break the opponent if the opponent does a back dash in response to the charge (even if it is an immediate reaction to it).

OK so how about I hit you with my fast lighning attack when you hold your body charge long, sometimes being stupid is the best. Problem solve.

When I meet an opponent like you, I just do first I back dash to let's you know that I know your move and then your second attemp I just hit you after I get hit by your fast ligh attack. Done. Sometimes don't try to become mastermind just try to do stupid things. It's will work. The first time I play, I meet a high skill opponet who consistency doing unblockable. I'm just play dump hit left and right fast attack for the whole time. At that time I win a match, of course I lost the 2 to 5 but I make my opponent change the tactics. He's become more defensive than doing those annoing GB.

[Ryumanjisen]

It's practically a true 50/50. This game does need more 50/50's, otherwise defending will be more rewarding than attacking... and that's never a good thing.

[ReJaCr]

My main tactic is parry-gb-double light-shoulder bash-double light-shoulder bash cancel into gb, double light-shoulder charge cancel into either gb or parry-side heavy or throw: win.

This is actually aids to play against. This is the type of thing that needs tuning.

[nestharus]

I swapped to Warden because I realized that they could do this in the OBT. It is a complete guessing game. I only shoulder charge when I'm right in the opponent's face, be it by a parry or just by being right there. Keep in mind that against most classes, the Warden only has a 33% chance to guess right. I found that if I try to react to what the opponent does, I don't have enough time to punish them. The most I can pull is a normal block or an anti-guard break. If I want to actually grab them parry them, I have to guess what they will do too : p. Maybe with practice Wardens can actually react to their opponent and get them every time. I'm not that good yet ;D.


It is OP and is the only thing that counters the dumb parry meta. If the opponent is out of stamina, they are completely defenseless to this tactic.


I also never do charged shoulder because it gives the opponent too much time to react to it.


When I came across another Warden, we both played each other for 5 hours. Who won was seemingly completely random. I would beat him 3-0, then he would beat me 3-0. Based on our guesses, we would either crush the other person or get crushed by them.



Attackers do need tools to counter parry, but this type of tool is not the answer. This goes back to stupid mind games that you find in other fighting games. We need mechanical responses, not "guess what the other person's going to do" nonsense.

[Knight_Raime]

warden's GB and cancel tactic is a true 50/50. Which this game sorely needs considering how easy it is to play defensively.
the only unblockable that imo is an issue is warlords headbutt since it comes out waaay too fast in order to reasonably react to. At best your dodge still gets you hit by the headbutt but you can't get hit by the sword follow up. at worst you do.

Conq's shield charge is pretty easy to dodge if you are an assassin. heavies and vanguards don't have the dash distance to avoid it. Also nobushi can flat out hidden stance to avoid it and other charge attacks (not sure about raiders grab though.)

I believe the reason they have a different timing is to making you learn more than one kind of timing. and it's also probably helping the game direct and connect charges easier. if you could last second dodge on anyone that would just make defensive style even more broken then it currently is.

[ZooL-z8l]

I did not read through the other comments, just the OPs message.

So what you explain in your post is a guessing game. fighting games only consist of guessing games. So what you discribe i essential to a fighting game. the problem is other characters lack those guessing games to mix up the opponents defense.

[Niamak]

A video explaining Warden's shoulder bash mindgames also called "vortex" in fighting games : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121575237?t=07h35m01s

[SinfulDaMasta]

Has anyone else had a problem with the Warlord's body charge attack when being spammed at close range? For one, I've seen people playing as Warlord get near an edge & bait an enemy nearby, & then when they do their body charge attack and pick up the enemy with their shield, they were able to do a 180 (turn around) without losing any momentum and throw them off the edge. When I was playing Elimination yesterday, I started against the same Warlord player in 2 rounds in a row. The first time, he caught me with 3 body charge so I was next to a wall, then (body charge into wall => heavy attack) three or four times in a row to kill me (I did not have enough time to recover nor quick attack). The next round, he caught me with 8 body charges (only 1-2 attempts at an attack) & on the eighth I got thrown off an edge. I was playing as an Orochi & was only managing to sidestep half the time, but even when doing my sidestep attack, he was blocking it half the time. I couldn't do any other attacks since he kept body charging me, and when stamina got low, he dodged back & hid behind shield for few seconds then started again. Is there some other counter to Warlord body charges that I was missing? & does anyone else see this (being able to do body charges consecutively until out of stamina) as being a tad broken?