Huge problem with guard breaks, revenge, revives and side stepping.(Dedicated Player) | Forums

[MinaX-LorD]

Okay, I've put tons of hours into the game in duel and brawl, and here are the things I noticed.

***Guard break window is TOO tight. It need to be just a BIT more lenient, because as of right now, even a tournament level player cannot react to a guard break. Once I started focusing on countering guard breaks, I noticed that the only way I can do it is if I pressed the button at damn near the same time the opponent does. Even when I am LOOKING for it, and expecting it. If I didn't press it at the same time, I don't get the guard break. I like the feature, but the input window needs to be JUST A TAD longer. It should be possible to react to it if you are fast enough, and it would stop all the cheesy guard break spam.

****Side stepping with mainly Orochi, and Berserker is extremely broken right now. At first I was completely salty when I first ran into an orochi and berserker that just kept side stepping on any initiation I did. Eventually, I started playing a lot slower and if I tried REALLY REALLY hard, I could punish people who abuse this mechanic, but it felt like I was working soooo hard just to land 1 poke and it didn't feel right. For reference I play Nobu and I swear, EVERYTHING I did was countered by either an early sidestep or a reaction side step. Either I do sidestep light(bleed poke) to try and beat them to the punch, and I get counter poked, I do sidestep heavy(wide swing),and completely go over their head because of their non existent hurtbox and get counter poked, or I try to wait and do a timed light attack, completely miss, and get counter poked before the startup on my second light comes out.

Now, I play pretty much every character besides PK and Orochi, so I know that certain warriors have bad matchups, but this is honestly just very ridiculous. If I predict that a side step is coming, or I change the timing, I should be able to hit a person who is side stepping. I really don't know what to suggest; maybe the speed is okay, but I do know that the hurtbox for the sidestep needs to be a little more punishable because as of right now(as Orochi and Berserker), you pretty much don't have a reason to NOT sidestep. I would have been completely fine getting counter poked out of my own side step poke, but a wide area covering swing should definitely hit someone in the head while they are trying to side step. From what I experienced, no matter which way they dodge, a wide swing still wont hit them no matter the timing. They kind of abuse this on the warlord too, although, I know how to counter play that.

I did read that guardbreaks are a sidestep counter which I kind of already knew, but I think it is kind of stupid that you need to basically blindly commit to a guard break just because you have to be worried about someone side stepping every single time you get close to them. I also have a weird feeling that the sidesteps on Orochi and Berserker are so long that a GB might not reach them?

I also think back stepping needs a bit of a cooldown or something, because a lot of people abuse the mechanict. They just spam backstep after every engagement, and there is no real punish for it. You might say, punish them with a running poke, or something, but people like PK can do backstep -> Sidestep EXTREMELY fast. It allows them to get out of many situations. Maybe it should take a bit more stamina? I honestly feel that PK could use a slight speed reduction overall. Seems really too fast in too many areas atm.

***Revenge is my biggest problem with this game right now. I realize it "adds" something to the gameplay, and a lot of noobs probably love the mechanic, but I really don't get whats going on with the revenge meter in brawl mode. Sometimes, a person will get revenge in literally 2 seconds of being attacked, not even double teamed. It doesn't seem consistent, and it shouldn't build up nearly as fast as it does. I kind of feel like it should only build up quickly if you are being targeted by two people. For me personally, I will be trying to play all game modes with NO revenge meter enabled, because it kind of takes way the realism, and skill for me. I can't count how many times my teammate and I have beat the piss out of two people only to have one of them get revenge and just get a free knockdown and massive damage(usually a 1 hit kill). This mechanic has no place in duel or brawl, in my opinion.

***Revive needs to be nerfed. It makes no sense, logically, or mechanically, that when you revive someone, they come back with full health. If anything, they should come back with 50%, then 30%, then 10%. Something like that. In what world do you revive a mortally wounded person and they come back at 100%? Makes no sense, and needs to be changed.

What do you guys think about the stuff I mentioned? By no means do I consider myself a grandmaster at this game, but I have been overwhelming A LOT of people since closed beta. I come from a competitive fighting game scene, and have competed at high tournament level, so I do know how to evaluate game mechanics when I see them. I love this game right now, and I am definitely all in, but these things I mentioned definitely need to be looked at.

[Azrakel2]

The Orochi is supposed to side step hes like a ninja not a full on samurai like the kensei he cant hold his guard perminatly. hes an agile counter attacker. having been playing one as my main ive had tons of players beat the dodge. and land hits on me. side stepping isn't abused its a doge and counter attack.its supposed to be that way for the orochi his playstyle is mainly dodging to get in them fast attacks

[MinaX-LorD]

I know what you are saying, but the fact remains that as of right now, dodging with Orochi and Berserker is completely overpowered. There is almost no counter play against it besides possibly committing to a guard break. You should be able to counter attack someone who is dodging if you see it coming a mile away. Right now, there is no reason to not just do multiple dodges as soon as someone gets close to you.

I feel like a lot of people don't see a problem with it because it is a crutch that is allowing them to win games. The hurtbox needs to be more punishable from side swipes. Dodging left should only evade a top attack and maybe a right sweeping attack at most. If you dodge the same way that an attack is traveling, it makes no sense that you don't get hit.

[Dynasty627]

Alright, I get that you're a dedicated player as far as hour wise but you cannot be a very skilled player, and please don't take that offensively. I play with very high skill level players. It's absolutely infuriating at times. When I fight, neither player ever succeeds a guard break unless it is after parrying (that's un-counterable if you didn't know). Guard break times are so lenient right now its insane. I barely even have to focus on that; worrying about AOE spam is a much more serious issue, at least at high levels as gameplay is less about combos and variety and more about hyper-defensive and punishing playstyles. At high levels players are NOT blocking, they parry and guard break because its heavily punishable and relatively easy to time.

This brings me to my point, dodging is a must for assassin characters and is very easily punishable if you know how. It's predictable and punishable by things like aoe swings which prompt assassin's into sidesteping thinking they can deflect but get hit anyways. Guard break as you mentioned is a natural counter if you hit it early enough, too late in the animation and it will not trigger. You might as well say, go ahead and take away the warlords shield but don't compensate the loss with anything.

I'm not fully disagreeing with you, so please don't take it that way. The problem is with the overall META of the game being hyper-defensive. There is no penalty for being a turtle and just waiting for someone to be stupid enough to attack you so you can just parry/guardbreak. I completely agree with you about revenge being wayyyy too much of a viable tactic for people to build up towards in a 1v1. I've actually had a situation where some people were fighting me in a 2v1, I was the 1, and the warlord I was fighting popped revenge while beating my face into the back of my head.

Reviving, should be nerfed as you said. Probably to about half HP simply because when you build an attack build you can take of about that much HP with many characters, even with some of your weaker attacks. Hell, a good zerk or raider who catches you with a downward heavy attack can knock off 3/4 your hp.

[Sawa963]

****Side stepping with mainly Orochi, and Berserker is extremely broken right now. . . .
if I tried REALLY REALLY hard, I could punish people who abuse this mechanic, but it felt like I was working soooo hard just to land 1 poke and it didn't feel right.

You were not correctly punishing people who abuse this mechanic.

The sidestep attacks only do the damage of a single light attack.
The sidestep attacks will always come from the direction of the dodge.
.... meaning you have the duration of the entire dodge to prepare a free parry and get a heavy punish.

If they're spamming dodge attacks, just wait for one and take your free parry.
If they aren't spamming dodge attacks, bait them into doing one by throwing out a slow heavy attack from long range, cancel it into feint, then take your free parry.

Poorly timed dodge attacks are a major liability at high levels.

https://youtu.be/QxQIyiqJCrA?t=7m

[MinaX-LorD]

@Dynasty627 As I stated in my first post, I do not consider myself a "god" of this game. No one is, unless they have been playing since the very first closed alpha or something?

I also stated how AOE swings will still miss on people who sidestep, no matter the direction. I don't know if this is just a flaw with Nobushi, but trust me...it happens, a lot. I have tried mixing up timing and I would say almost 90% of the time, the AOE swing will NOT hit a Berserker or Orochi who sidesteps. So, this leads me to try other options, which Nobushi does not have. You cannot predict them with a light poke because their sidestep attack will dodge the first poke and then come out before the second one, and if you try to wait to hit them with the first poke, that will be too slow as well.

Maybe its not an issue for everyone, but for Nobushi, it seemed like a HUGE issue. Also, the guard break window is NOT lenient. I'm not saying I can never counter them, I'm just saying that due to latency, you cannot be consistent unless you and your opponent are both the type of people who like to try guard breaks a lot, which will result in a lot of counter breaks, which may lead you to believe that you are both good at guard breaking. My whole point is that a guard break window should be tight enough that its not just easy to counter for anyone, but lenient enough that you have enough time to react if you are a skilled and aware player.

@Sawa963 I am very aware of all of this, and I am aware that I can use guard breaks to punish someone who constantly opens up with a sidestep, but my whole point is, (for nobushi at least) there is no way to counter this other than hard committing to a GB, or like you said, waiting for a parry. I don't like the idea of always waiting, it puts you at a disadvantage. If someone sidesteps, and I sidestep after them, they should not hit me, and I shouldn't just whiff a heavy, quick, special aoe swing over their head. I shouldn't have to wait to try to parry a sidestep attack every single time, because this type of waiting opens you up to a mixup. I wait for a parry, then they can just sidestep -> GB. I may have needed to wait a bit longer on my sidesteps, but as far as I can recall, I tried switching up the timing in many different ways, and it either resulted in me getting poked, or whiffing completely.

Like I said, maybe it is just a problem for Nobushi, but as it stands, it is a very scummy tactic and needs to be looked at. The hurtbox of sidesteps just needs to be punished more consistently, because dodging just left and being able to duck an AOE swing from BOTH directions makes absolutely no sense. I beat these people after just resorting to playing very slowly and just landing single distance pokes, but it just felt like a headache, and just because I can beat people who play like this doesn't mean that the mechanic is not unbalanced. It is an issue of HIT DETECTION, which is not just me complaining about someone spamming moves. This is like a game design flaw.

Add me on PS4 if you guys want to play on release.

*edit, btw I watched that video, and those were good punish examples. Thanks. I still think there should be more counterplay to a sidestep than just doing parry though. And if that Berserker was smart he would have mixed up with sidestep GB, or sidestep feint into top light etc... I just don't like how sidesteps make you wait to react. You basically cannot be aggressive.

[Aarpian2]

Guard break window is TOO tight. It need to be just a BIT more lenient, because as of right now, even a tournament level player cannot react to a guard break.

Clearly you don't know any tournament players then. All the guys I play with will tech a guard break 99% of the time.

[Ash_is_bae]

lol guard break too tight? It's too lenient if you ask me I will never get grabbed unless I get parried first.

[Dynasty627]

@Dynasty627 As I stated in my first post, I do not consider myself a "god" of this game. No one is, unless they have been playing since the very first closed alpha or something?

I also stated how AOE swings will still miss on people who sidestep, no matter the direction. I don't know if this is just a flaw with Nobushi, but trust me...it happens, a lot. I have tried mixing up timing and I would say almost 90% of the time, the AOE swing will NOT hit a Berserker or Orochi who sidesteps. So, this leads me to try other options, which Nobushi does not have. You cannot predict them with a light poke because their sidestep attack will dodge the first poke and then come out before the second one, and if you try to wait to hit them with the first poke, that will be too slow as well.

Maybe its not an issue for everyone, but for Nobushi, it seemed like a HUGE issue. Also, the guard break window is NOT lenient. I'm not saying I can never counter them, I'm just saying that due to latency, you cannot be consistent unless you and your opponent are both the type of people who like to try guard breaks a lot, which will result in a lot of counter breaks, which may lead you to believe that you are both good at guard breaking. My whole point is that a guard break window should be tight enough that its not just easy to counter for anyone, but lenient enough that you have enough time to react if you are a skilled and aware player.

@Sawa963 I am very aware of all of this, and I am aware that I can use guard breaks to punish someone who constantly opens up with a sidestep, but my whole point is, (for nobushi at least) there is no way to counter this other than hard committing to a GB, or like you said, waiting for a parry. I don't like the idea of always waiting, it puts you at a disadvantage. If someone sidesteps, and I sidestep after them, they should not hit me, and I shouldn't just whiff a heavy, quick, special aoe swing over their head. I shouldn't have to wait to try to parry a sidestep attack every single time, because this type of waiting opens you up to a mixup. I wait for a parry, then they can just sidestep -> GB. I may have needed to wait a bit longer on my sidesteps, but as far as I can recall, I tried switching up the timing in many different ways, and it either resulted in me getting poked, or whiffing completely.

Like I said, maybe it is just a problem for Nobushi, but as it stands, it is a very scummy tactic and needs to be looked at. The hurtbox of sidesteps just needs to be punished more consistently, because dodging just left and being able to duck an AOE swing from BOTH directions makes absolutely no sense. I beat these people after just resorting to playing very slowly and just landing single distance pokes, but it just felt like a headache, and just because I can beat people who play like this doesn't mean that the mechanic is not unbalanced. It is an issue of HIT DETECTION, which is not just me complaining about someone spamming moves. This is like a game design flaw.

Add me on PS4 if you guys want to play on release.

*edit, btw I watched that video, and those were good punish examples. Thanks. I still think there should be more counterplay to a sidestep than just doing parry though. And if that Berserker was smart he would have mixed up with sidestep GB, or sidestep feint into top light etc... I just don't like how sidesteps make you wait to react. You basically cannot be aggressive.

Oh, well no wonder you got punished, orochi and zerk can be considered hard counters to nobushi. I've met some really good nobushi players who even as orochi I struggle against just because of their ability to keep me at bay through range but in the end I have too many gap closers for her and she'll lose. The best thing you can do against an assassin is probably feint, parry/block, then punish; or just psych them out. Lots of players get psyched out pretty easy if you just make them think they can read you then change it up suddenly mid fight.

You are very right about the not being aggressive part though. This is, in my opinion, a HUGE flaw with this game right now. It really makes me not want to fight players because its just not fun. Even when I win it isn't fun. It's the major reason I made a post earlier requesting that they add more freedom to the game in terms of matchmaking options and more PVE options. lvl 3 bots are a joke once you get good at your character. When I play with my friends who are just as good I'd like to be challenged. I thought it would be really fun to fight 4v8 vs bots and to get rid of this absolutely silly notion of strictly having 2v2, 4v4, 1v1. Let us choose how we're going to play. Sometimes there is only 3 of us playing and we don't want to play with a random. Sometimes I have 5. I hate this arbitrary idea of always having 4 player multiplayer. We're on PC for Narnia's sake.

[Wrander]

Okay, I've put tons of hours into the game in duel and brawl, and here are the things I noticed.

***Guard break window is TOO tight. It need to be just a BIT more lenient, because as of right now, even a tournament level player cannot react to a guard break. Once I started focusing on countering guard breaks, I noticed that the only way I can do it is if I pressed the button at damn near the same time the opponent does. Even when I am LOOKING for it, and expecting it. If I didn't press it at the same time, I don't get the guard break. I like the feature, but the input window needs to be JUST A TAD longer. It should be possible to react to it if you are fast enough, and it would stop all the cheesy guard break spam.

No, don't know where you got the tournament players in the beta but a lot of just normal beta players you meet in the game can counter nearly every guardbreak on reaction with just a couple of days to practice.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322 (thanks flatlanders, going to post it in every discussion for invincible defense)

Edit. And you shouldn't be able to react to a grab. Thats the point of a grab.