Junior Member
I've main'd the berserker since I joined open beta (playing it exclusively), and have reached a point competitively that the only people that routinely kill me are those who are capable of constant parries and counter combos. Once you reach the point where almost any predictable attack results in being parried, your options as a berseker in a 1v1 engagement dive off a cliff. No matter how fast you attack and how unpredictable you make your chain, once they've reached a skill threshold where they can spot parry your attacks there is literally nothing "berserk" about what you can do thematically if you want a chance of winning unless you manage to throw your opponent to the ground.
Obviously at high skill play, as others have mentioned, strings of attacks aren't the norm because the moment you do something that offers a chance to be parried, it will be parried- unless you feint them successfully which nets you a single hit and maybe a guard break. Thus you have to rely on feints to methodically light attack them to death (one non-combo hit at a time over a minute... which sucks), or punish attacks they miss via the dodge-light or dodge-guard break method. There is nothing berserk like about this- and other classes can do this technique with better safety, range, combo potential, and damage.
Since the infinite chain requires light attacks (which upon a simple block completely hamstrings you), and your heavy attacks are beautifully slow, there really isn't much that can be done short of modifying how the attacks work to better suit a berserker's theme.
What should NOT be done
Faster, more unpredictable attacks would not be a healthy change- players who are not reactionary gods (top skill players) would suffer and cries of "OP" would spread like wildfire among the general player base.
I would also argue that unblockable attacks incorporated as part of the infinite chain string would also cause this issue since it guarantees punishment of the defending player regardless of their talent for blocking and parrying. This would be frustrating and un-fun for players who want to be rewarded for blocking like they were supposed to do, and would make follow ups overly rewarding for bersekers who can chain into a heavy unblockable after almost every one of their attack patterns.
Solution 1:
In addition to the oft requested nerf to parry/block mechanics, something that enables the berserker to break down an opponents defenses with effort- such as stamina damage when blocked/parried, or increased stamina damage on guard break/throw. This would simulate a berseker "overwhelming" an opponent's defenses, leading to the target's exhaustion and enabling the combos that are the signature of the berserker class. This would likely need a buff to how blocked light attacks are handled so that the berserker isn't automatically punished every time someone holds the correct direction for a block. Additionally, you could have a near instant followup attack after someone has been thrown to the ground, "pouncing" on the victim.
Solution 2:
Alternatively, you could remove the flinch mechanic after blocks AND parries (or atleast some of it) once dauntless has been reached (preferably with a lower threshold for entering dauntless as suggested by the OP), forcing the opponent to dodge or build up revenge to break the onslaught. This way the berserker gets to go bersek while the opponent must demonstrate reactionary skill to continue to defend against the constant barrage of attacks until one side makes a mistake or the revenge bar is filled.
Regardless, I really hope the dev's will consider tweaks to the class, as the difficulty in playing it feels very unrewarding mechanically once you begin fighting players who know how to defend themselves.
Junior Member
On this point real quick, as you know doing throw does damage but that's only if you throw to the side, if you actually do a throw forward it does stamina damage. (I'm pretty novice though, so there could be more to it than that)Originally Posted by SethEnraged Go to original post
Junior Member
Rep'd 2 (nearly 3) in OB and 1 (nearly 2) in the CB:
Better chip damage is a great idea, I love chip damage! (whoever mentioned that!)
I was saying to my amigo last night that I feel the zerk needs something more to their kit like a quick double light heavy that can go into a chain or can be cancel repeated (kinda like the PK's L,L,H/c that I think Tru showcased nicely a bit yesterday.
Or maybe make the FD L unblockable for a nice chain opener.
A bit of a wild idea I thought of was like a trip/reset chain ender, so kinda like pressing down and heavy would knock the opponent down (no damage or superficial/dropped on the spot so no ledge cheesing) and leap you back so the engagement range is reset to a neutral position. So you couldn't knock down into a heavy but you could do FD L or H back to them but they would be able to counter.
Probably a stupid idea in practice but thought I'd air it.
Playing the higher skilled players is so frustrating I played Berserker because I like the idea of wailing on people and feeling like my eyes are going to rage pop out of my ****ing skull, but being unable to do that due to the good chance you'll get screwed over and having to play that slow game with lights and countering doesn't feel like the frenzied axe wielding maniac you're supposed to be portraying.
Also let me remap my cancel button my hands don't like where the button is and it makes me sad when I try to pull the sick feints only to struggle getting to the button and get parried
Member
Sadly, I completely agree with this thread.
The berserker is a noob smashing beast, but once you reach a higher skill range of players that actually know how to block and parry, you're basically up sheet creek without a paddle. I've settled on the fact that I won't be using the serker for dueling in its current state and just settle for using it to gank in dominion, which is quite sad.
Hopefully some tweaks are made to make it competitive in high level duels.
Senior Member
actually never payed too much attention to it, but im gonna test that again come tuesday.Originally Posted by gaben_282 Go to original post
im pretty sure that forward (normal) throws do normal damage too though, as i've killed the lvl 1 bot in training mode quite a few times with it while practicing deflects
maybe it already does a small amount of stamina damage, but they could move all damage into stamina damage to be honest.
Junior Member
Cant agree with everything u write, u even missed on of the most flaws of the berserker in your starter post op:
1. the gusrenteed GB after BLOCKING a light attack of the zerker has toi go - holy **** what a joke.
2. all other assassins are faster, their side attacks are plus their light attacks, so I mainly play defensive in those matches
3. things like unchained combo never gonna happen in high skill play, no matter how u change it.
Although, from all of those reasoms, nr1 is the most laughable.
Member
I will say this: despite his issues that need to be addressed, besides the wardens he probably has the best zone attack in the game. It's so versatile: add it to your mix up, safely gain distance, range check when fighting more than one enemy. There's just tons you can do with it. I think I've only seen someone block it one time.
Member
I never really used him, only seen people do well with him. That said, there was a Korean user who said that they considered Zerker A tier. I think that might be due to them having more of a team-match gaming culture rather than a duelling one- I don't know, I'm just looking at the games/esports they tend to really enjoy and guessing. That said, its an interesting thought that, in societies that we, as English speakers, have little communication with are looking at the game in a different way.
Senior Member
yeah i didnt write the thing about the light-block correctly, will change that asap.Originally Posted by Torbschka Go to original post
berserker could really use a speed-buff on the offensive side.
about the chain in high skill, i do think it COULD happen, but it needs a decent change... in its current form its useless.
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edit:
added a seperat part about the light-block problem to the opening post.
Member
I didn't read the entire thread, so sorry if this has already been posted, but i have an idea for a fix to the infinite chain:
It's a bit of a redesign rather than a tweak, but i think it could work.
So what you do is, you remove stagger on blocked, CHAINED light attacks for the berserker, meaning even blocked light attacks let you continue the combo, unless they block the FIRST one. This will eliminate the auto-grab problem, and will allow you to make the change to dauntless that i'm about to suggest.
So, now that chained lights don't stagger when blocked, you can basically continue the combo untill you are parried, dodged or you run out of stamina (unless you're fighting the damned conquoror of course)
now what you do is, instead of reducing stamina cost on dauntless, you make it so that every attack after the 3rd deals ramping amounts of block damage. That way, if an opponent focusses simply on blocking, they will still take small amounts of damage per hit, ramping up the longer you keep the combo going. However, since you no longer get stamina reduction on attacks, you have to manage your stamina, or risk running out. Since the berserker already has a fairly large stamina pool you can keep the offense going for a while still even without the reduction, but as long as you swap direction enough to be unpredictable, you won't get easily parried.
This not only allows the berserker to deal some damage against very defensive heroes, but also goes well with the theme of a relentless warrior hammering on the enemy's guard untill it breaks, or they run out of steam.
Oh, also a quick note to the OP: ALL dodge attacks have locked in directionality as far as i know. An attack will always come from the dodge direction, this goes for all classes, including Kensei, Orochi and the assasins.
