Does Warden really need lightning speed zone attack and top light? | Forums

[The_Wall_]

Ohh you were serious. I thought you were actually making indirect fun by saying warden lacked speed when he got the fastest attacks in the game.

Also if you read my post you would know he got plenty of tools, and not just tools, they got great synergy with each other. I can expand on that a little later if you want clarification.

[AveImperator85]

Fastest attacks in the game? Um...sorry, no. Having played Orochi, Kensei, Noobucheese and Cheesekeeper, I can safely say all of the above have much, MUCH faster attacks with far more reliable gap closers, which grants them better utility. I especially had an easier time closing the gap with the Kensei, as he has THREE different possible dash attacks to help him get in close, all of which require different defenses and all of which are very fast. The Orochi has the same two-hit combo which actually comes out much faster than the Warden's with faster heavy attacks as well, not to mention overall speed and mobility as well as several ways to change distance.

Nobushi can easily poke you at range for days with three light taps in all different directions in the blink of an eye with a guaranteed hit/poison and the Peacekeeper AND Berserker can rapidly change direction of attacks. So I don't know what you're smoking when you say the Warden is the fastest attacker in the game. Are you referring maybe to his Zone Attack? That's handy, sure, but hardly a reliable measure, considering it eats half your stamina.

Edit: Also, "up to speed" is an expression.

[The_Wall_]

It is by far easier to block Orochi and peacekeeper lights. And when Kensei dodge attacks, i would wager that anyone who is good at blocking will tell you warden mix-ups are more dangerous than any other character that just light attacks. Also regarding kensei you know where it comes and have time to parry it because you see the dodge direction. Warden zone doesnt need to tell you its coming, and can be hidden into mix-ups. Not many characters have acces to fast frame mixups because they cant feint light. And heavy into light feint is not that hard to react to. Not to mention the only long range poke kensei have is the top one, also not cancelable (did you not read my first post) which will get crush countered or at best blocked unless the warden is balls to the walls.

And about the Kensei, the final nail in the coffin regarding him, is that the heavy dash is punishable on block. You know what that means? Your opponents are gonna laugh all the way to the ledge or wall if you even dare use it near one, and in the open field you are most likely gonna eat a straight heavy vs most classes.

Now, again, im tired of repeating myself, but long range pokes are almost always top. Nobushi cant do that vs a good warden. Why? Because Warden can easily crush counter that timing, and you cannot cancel the Nobushi light top pokes.
You say "in the blink of an eye" but compared to warden attacks Nobushi attacks are hilariously slow. If you ever faced a good Valkyrie in the closed test you know what im talking about, not that was lightning lights.

Yes, peacekeeper and beserker can change attacks fast, but that is literally all they can do unless you hand them an easy deflectable hit. Funny how exactly warden is the only real counter to this, as his mix-up triple fast frames are extremely hard to do that on with reaction when they are mixed and not obvious. Hell, even just throwing them out without mixups can easily take down decent players.

As a final point, that many bring up. Yes, the zone attack costs stamina. But what is stopping a warden from chipping you with it, and then regaining stamina while blocking your inferior attacks?

[Dez_troi_aR]

It is by far easier to block Orochi and peacekeeper lights. And when Kensei dodge attacks, i would wager that anyone who is good at blocking will tell you warden mix-ups are more dangerous than any other character that just light attacks. Also regarding kensei you know where it comes and have time to parry it because you see the dodge direction. Warden zone doesnt need to tell you its coming, and can be hidden into mix-ups. Not many characters have acces to fast frame mixups because they cant feint light. And heavy into light feint is not that hard to react to. Not to mention the only long range poke kensei have is the top one, also not cancelable (did you not read my first post) which will get crush countered or at best blocked unless the warden is balls to the walls.

And about the Kensei, the final nail in the coffin regarding him, is that the heavy dash is punishable on block. You know what that means? Your opponents are gonna laugh all the way to the ledge or wall if you even dare use it near one, and in the open field you are most likely gonna eat a straight heavy vs most classes.

Now, again, im tired of repeating myself, but long range pokes are almost always top. Nobushi cant do that vs a good warden. Why? Because Warden can easily crush counter that timing, and you cannot cancel the Nobushi light top pokes.
You say "in the blink of an eye" but compared to warden attacks Nobushi attacks are hilariously slow. If you ever faced a good Valkyrie in the closed test you know what im talking about, not that was lightning lights.

Yes, peacekeeper and beserker can change attacks fast, but that is literally all they can do unless you hand them an easy deflectable hit. Funny how exactly warden is the only real counter to this, as his mix-up triple fast frames are extremely hard to do that on with reaction when they are mixed and not obvious. Hell, even just throwing them out without mixups can easily take down decent players.

As a final point, that many bring up. Yes, the zone attack costs stamina. But what is stopping a warden from chipping you with it, and then regaining stamina while blocking your inferior attacks?

Could someone please explain to me how so many people in this Thread have become so good in two betas and maybe one closed test that they are now on super max high skill level?

Thank you for taking a sec to look down to us mere mortals for telling us that the game is "totally broken" up there.

I doubt the "at high skill lvl its just zone attack and crushing counter"-story .... the hall of heroes guys who have played any alphas/tech tests etc. and have like 300 hours playtime have their points of critique, too, but i have never seen one of their great wardens plaing the game as you just described.

The best warden out there is propably willaguy, go check his stream. He doesnt rely on crushing counter and zone attack as this thread suggests.

Concerning the zone attack: It is not supposed to be reacted to out of nowhere, it is supposed to be expected. Like a gb. It is the only tool which can strike you at a certain range, so dont just stand there. Either stand there guarding your left side and be happy if he wastes his stamina, or close the gab.

For the record: Against Warden
-Guard your left side
-Dont do Top-heavy-attack-out-of-nowhere, the warden can punish it easily (as can everyone else by just countering-->gb--> side-heavy/wall stun-->top heavy
-If you are an assasssin: Dont just stand in zone-attack range ffs. Try to close the distance fast and be ready to block/dodge to the left side during that phase.
......and while the zone attack definately is very fast, it's speed is comparable a lot of other top light attacks from Nobushi/pk, orochi, which you assume to give the warden a free crushing overhead-counter because "high level play". Seriously, you expect the warden player to react to a top light with a parry but other players are not able to simply defend against a attack which is the only attack to expect beeing at a certain distance to the warden?
-Also, the shoulder charge you HAVE to dodge backwards, otherwise the warden can gb you out of your dodge (as was described since the hall of heroes advanced mechanics- guide)
The whole "high-lvl-player" argument is totally tautologic because you can assume they will always do everything perfect, which ultimatly makes competition itself obsolete. Watch the streams of the best players and you will see that they dont get every parry down/crushing counter in etc.

Maybe my opponents were just bad, but i ahave never had a problem with wardens zone attack, because i just guard my left side when closing distance. Getting a little salty here: I think most problems with the zone attacks stem from half the people playing assassins now and are totally mindblown by beeing hit by an attack which they could not avoid by having faster light attacks.

So, no... i appreceate that you have made such a well written and thoughtful post but i dont see any valid points...

Finally, if i am just a total noob and dont have a deep enough understanding of the game yet to understand your critique, i am sorry. I only played closed and open beta.

[The_Wall_]

Could someone please explain to me how so many people in this Thread have become so good in two betas and maybe one closed test that they are now on super max high skill level?

Thank you for taking a sec to look down to us mere mortals for telling us that the game is "totally broken" up there.

I doubt the "at high skill lvl its just zone attack and crushing counter"-story .... the hall of heroes guys who have played any alphas/tech tests etc. and have like 300 hours playtime have their points of critique, too, but i have never seen one of their great wardens plaing the game as you just described.

The best warden out there is propably willaguy, go check his stream. He doesnt rely on crushing counter and zone attack as this thread suggests.

Concerning the zone attack: It is not supposed to be reacted to out of nowhere, it is supposed to be expected. Like a gb. It is the only tool which can strike you at a certain range, so dont just stand there. Either stand there guarding your left side and be happy if he wastes his stamina, or close the gab.

For the record: Against Warden
-Guard your left side
-Dont do Top-heavy-attack-out-of-nowhere, the warden can punish it easily (as can everyone else by just countering-->gb--> side-heavy/wall stun-->top heavy
-If you are an assasssin: Dont just stand in zone-attack range ffs. Try to close the distance fast and be ready to block/dodge to the left side during that phase.
......and while the zone attack definately is very fast, it's speed is comparable a lot of other top light attacks from Nobushi/pk, orochi, which you assume to give the warden a free crushing overhead-counter because "high level play". Seriously, you expect the warden player to react to a top light with a parry but other players are not able to simply defend against a attack which is the only attack to expect beeing at a certain distance to the warden?
-Also, the shoulder charge you HAVE to dodge backwards, otherwise the warden can gb you out of your dodge (as was described since the hall of heroes advanced mechanics- guide)
The whole "high-lvl-player" argument is totally tautologic because you can assume they will always do everything perfect, which ultimatly makes competition itself obsolete. Watch the streams of the best players and you will see that they dont get every parry down/crushing counter in etc.

Maybe my opponents were just bad, but i ahave never had a problem with wardens zone attack, because i just guard my left side when closing distance. Getting a little salty here: I think most problems with the zone attacks stem from half the people playing assassins now and are totally mindblown by beeing hit by an attack which they could not avoid by having faster light attacks.

So, no... i appreceate that you have made such a well written and thoughtful post but i dont see any valid points...

Finally, if i am just a total noob and dont have a deep enough understanding of the game yet to understand your critique, i am sorry. I only played closed and open beta.

Well discussin based on both players being idiots doesnt make any matchup discussion better wouldnt' you agree?

Also the difference between warden top light and others is that warden can use his, but they cant use theirs in fear of crush, negating their pokes. That was the point of that parahraph, sorry if i wrote it so the point didn't get across.

Guarding left is easy until they begin to mix all their three fast frames with a heavy feint into zone or light top or sprint to make you think they charge hit, but actually cancel into stance dance into zone. As you can see, resting your block on left is not gonna help you much vs that.
Btw guard break is not something you need to expect, you can perfect react to guard break and tech it on reaction out of nowhere.

Dont get me wrong, i am not the best player in the world, not even close. But just like a good book critique'r can judge books without writing good books themselves, so can some mechanics and matchups be analyzed with enough knowledge.

There are some things still i need to test to verify, i am by no means done, and so my statements are of course to be judged and tested. I could be proven wrong, but so far i am not convinced that Warden is not the top tier. Fx right now im busy testing the zone attack and punish frames, will update if i find out more.

Of course all Warden tools can be played against, teched against, and Wardens are not gods walking among us. But my point still stands that at equal skill you have to work harder than the Warden if both players know the basics and their movesets.

Thanks for the big response, i have taken something to heart, and will of course check out the various good wardens around, busy watching a few already.

EDIT: Now that i confirmed warden zone is punishable by any character on block, which is huge

[Stankyfoot]

Wall, I was talking to people complaining about Warden's shoulder bash mixup. Pound for pound, Warden is in a bad place compared to other heroes. You need to be much more skilled than your opponent to perform on the same level. Sure, good players are going to wreck face with the Warden, but they could do even better with other heroes.

The Warden suffers from what I call First Born Syndrome in game design. It's very clear that the Warden was the first hero the devs created and as time went on and new heroes were made, they kept adding new and better toolkits to them. Only problem is, it seems they forgot about the Warden, so now he's largely outclassed by everyone else and their nice quality-of-life kits and perks. The Warden isn't bad, he's just...kinda left behind. They need to go back and do some touch-ups to bring him up to speed.

I agree with 50% of what you said here. Yes, the Warden requires better fundamentals to be consistent but thats due to the nature of him being so well rounded, you as a player need to know a bit of everything. Fortunately this is also his advantage as he can engage every hero on the terms that he, himself decides. He's not pigeon holed into a particular strategy like the Noubushi

[TruDotaR228]

no balance

[AveImperator85]

Ok, Wall said the Nobushi's attacks are laughable slow compared to the Warden's. At this point, I'm convinced he's just a trolling idiot, so I'm finished here. Guy is clearly playing a completely different game than the rest of us, living in a fantasy world of ********.

[Waynedetta40k]

This is just another whiny whimpy thread like all of those threads.
First off Ubi will not ever balance the game because people make those kind of threads which makes them pointless.
Second Game has not been released yet players still think they know how to balance it.

No one ever needs another reason to laugh at every TC which makes threads like this.