Does Warden really need lightning speed zone attack and top light? | Forums

[ThePollie]

Well, his lackluster kit has to have something to it.

Take away much more and he's literally nothing but the barebones combat system itself.

[Stankyfoot]

Every class has been called OP. That means that, until more testing is done, none are.

[Pariah695]

As a Warden main, I have to agree somewhat. In a game where nearly every single attack, including guard breaks, is reactable, the Wardens zone attack being one of the few uncreactable moves makes it one of the best in the game. Not to mention it's fantastic range, push back on block, and that it's safe on block like all attacks. I don't have a problem with the top light, I think that's fine. But the fact that the shoulder tackles is cancelable makes it probably the greatest tool in the game as it is one of the only true mix-up opportunities in the game.

Here's the problem, normally I'd be inclined to agree that these tools make Warden an extremely powerful character compared to others. But as For Honor is right now, it doesn't really matter. The game is broken at high level. When you get good enough, you can parry nearly any attack, you can feint your parry attempts to make them safe if the attacker tries to feint for a mix-up, and react to every single guard break that comes your way. At that point, you're an iron wall of indestructible defense. Even the Warden's zone attack becomes largely useless because it always comes from the same side, just hold your guard left, and only move it on reaction to attacks. At high level play, the only thing that can break through defense is something like Warden's shoulder bash cancel mix-ups.

I think before we can properly start discussing character balance, Ubisoft needs to fix how overwhelmingly powerful defense is.

[AveImperator85]

You're aware that the Warden has NOTHING else in his kit, right?

[The_Wall_]

You're aware that the Warden has NOTHING else in his kit, right?

Yeah, because i listed his tools, so that kinda gives itself. Also it is not just the number of tools that makes a character great. Having 5 good tools is better than 7 mediocre tools the enemy can easily react to.


Wardens 2 fast frames attacks are so fast they that only a few players can actually consistently counter-parry and crush it. But lets not just talk about the class in a vacuum, since the relative strength is what is most important. I can confidently say every other class is miles easier to defend against, yes, even warlord is much easier to defend against because he relies on counterplay to get most out of his kit. Warden does not need that, can play both styles equally well and have much scarier frames. If you just dueled a decent Warden for hours, you will feel the other classes move in slow-motion until you get used to them again.

So your fear is that, if the zone attack gets a tiny bit slower, the whole class falls part right? But doesn't that actually mean you put his zone attack in such high regard, that you cant see the class work without such a powerful weapon? Maybe that is food for thought, because there are no other class that even remotely relies on his zone attack so much as Warden. There are honorable mentions, but nothing close to it. Should a character really need to rely so much on the zone? Well, maybe it is not wrong to design a class that does so, i mean you know where he can hit it, and he cant cancel it, so that is fair. But as i have stated out, the combination of his other fast frames make it stronger.

When a warden runs toward you, where do you block? Zone attack? Light top? His charge attack? He can instantly enter guard and zone attack instead of charge attack, or he can just do the charge, one of the only good counters here is reading the opponent is gonna do something, but unless you wanna get side-step bash locked you might only get a light in.

Sure, you can block and dodge every attack in the game, but i feel like Warden have the advantage in 1v1 matchups overall because of the reasons stated. Are Wardens impossible to beat? Hell no, of course you can beat a Warden, everyone makes mistakes. But at equal high skill, i would say the Warden probably wins 2/3.

[The_Wall_]

As a Warden main, I have to agree somewhat. In a game where nearly every single attack, including guard breaks, is reactable, the Wardens zone attack being one of the few uncreactable moves makes it one of the best in the game. Not to mention it's fantastic range, push back on block, and that it's safe on block like all attacks. I don't have a problem with the top light, I think that's fine. But the fact that the shoulder tackles is cancelable makes it probably the greatest tool in the game as it is one of the only true mix-up opportunities in the game.

Here's the problem, normally I'd be inclined to agree that these tools make Warden an extremely powerful character compared to others. But as For Honor is right now, it doesn't really matter. The game is broken at high level. When you get good enough, you can parry nearly any attack, you can feint your parry attempts to make them safe if the attacker tries to feint for a mix-up, and react to every single guard break that comes your way. At that point, you're an iron wall of indestructible defense. Even the Warden's zone attack becomes largely useless because it always comes from the same side, just hold your guard left, and only move it on reaction to attacks. At high level play, the only thing that can break through defense is something like Warden's shoulder bash cancel mix-ups.

I think before we can properly start discussing character balance, Ubisoft needs to fix how overwhelmingly powerful defense is.

Very well put. I actually dreamed about how a fighting' ish game would be if everything could be reacted to. No more 50/50 tech throw chances, no more unreactables or unblockable setup comboes, everything should be able to be countered with reaction, a game of pure skill.

But it shows one big problem: When players are so good at reacting to things in the game, that they cannot get hit if they choose not to, what then? What if they just defend all game for fun?
I tested it a few times, just go in, and block for the about 5½ minutes, and it works most of the times, even against decent players.

The damage people take at higher up is mostly because they read wrong when trying to make an attack and then get punished, or because of trades. If they didn't want to get hit, they probably wouldn't for the way most cases.
But if they introduce unreactables or 50/50 tech guard breaks people would be infuriated too. So is the solution to have insanely fast frames like Wardens in mix-ups? I actually wondered if Warden was maybe the only balanced character, and all the other characters are just not fast enough, so that good players will have a tough time to block attacks in high level.

That would be a slaughter for low/medium duels though. But it is an interesting thought nonetheless. The only thing that stands clear, is that Warden is in another tier in itself. Either the other classes need frame uppings, or you slow down Warden to make the game a bit slower but equal.

There is of course another solution you hinted at. Perhaps slow down Warden, but in return nerf over-all defense in a fair way.

[E-A-X]

I mained warden since closed beta and im still doing it, to be fair the only tools you got are light attacks, shoulderbash, guardbreak and zone attack.

So if you always guard your left youll be fine against zone attack, still though that zone could use a nerf in range i feel. the top light attacks are actually easier to guard based on reactions while zone attack is not - can also parry quite easily just based on game sound when that top light comes your way - means you do not even need to look at the icon, just take your good reactions and straight up parry it.

TL;DR Basicly just guard your left and mostly only have to switch to the top when the sound comes in - a rotation between left and top guard also works brilliant i feel.

If you have a faster class with a quick zone attack you can just use that one aswell when you see/hear the shoulderbash coming in, this completly negates every cancel.

[AveImperator85]

Wall, I was talking to people complaining about Warden's shoulder bash mixup. Pound for pound, Warden is in a bad place compared to other heroes. You need to be much more skilled than your opponent to perform on the same level. Sure, good players are going to wreck face with the Warden, but they could do even better with other heroes.

The Warden suffers from what I call First Born Syndrome in game design. It's very clear that the Warden was the first hero the devs created and as time went on and new heroes were made, they kept adding new and better toolkits to them. Only problem is, it seems they forgot about the Warden, so now he's largely outclassed by everyone else and their nice quality-of-life kits and perks. The Warden isn't bad, he's just...kinda left behind. They need to go back and do some touch-ups to bring him up to speed.

[The_Wall_]

Bring Warden up to speed? Nevermind clever reverse troll post.

[AveImperator85]

Bring Warden up to speed? Nevermind clever reverse troll post.

So....you hone in on ONE thing that I said, criticize and dismiss it...and I'M the troll? Ok