Orochi is broken... | Forums

[Ryuichir0]

I like it warm so I will reignite the flame.

First thinks first. I'm Orochi Prestige 1 in Closed and Open Beta. I didn't play Alpha.
I can farm most P1- players all day and I get my *** handed by nearly everyone that has P3+ regardless of class.
I think that everyone should play every class to P1 to learn their weaknesses.

Now my question is
Why do your Orochis deal high damage compared to other classes?
My Orochi has one of the weakest light attacks in the game.
His heavy attacks does around half the damage of Conquerors which reaches about the same speed when he swings his mace.
His side counter again around half of the Wardens top counter.
His Zone attack... you get the idea.

I understand that he has a lot of tools but from what experienced there is always one with a better version.
The one thing that really makes him special in my eyes is Storm Strike and in the Open Beta I get parried consistently by P3+ players.
All in all I don't see a future for Orochi in Duel/Brawl in his current iteration not to mention after another nerf.

But I can see his future in Elimination.
His Moveset excels itself in 2vs1 while evading a second or third enemy at the same time.
Also his feats are just perfect for this mode.

[DaReaper9598]

I've been doing duels all day. I play a peacekeeper.

Orochi's advantages over me are pretty hard to count, but I'll go down the list as best I can.

If an Orochi and Peacekeeper both sidestep the same direction and attack, the Orochi's fast attack will come in before the peacekeepers.

If an Orochi and Peacekeeper both sidestep in opposing directions and then attack, the Orochi's fast attack will still land.

If a Peacekeeper's light attack is blocked, and she then retreats backwards, an immediate Orochi top light will connect (which, as we know, guarantees a second.)

If an Orochi's light attack is blocked, or even parried, he can back dash far enough to escape before a peacekeeper can land a blow (and if he immediate follows up with his own light attack, they will usually both land on each other.)

Both Peacekeeper and Orochi can be just as easily grabbed by each other if a dash move is initiated, however an Orochi seems to have more time to initiate a grab before the Peacekeeper's light attack can follow up to defend them from the grab. An Orochi who dashes and swings will very often have his attack cancel out the grab.

An Orochi can get a guaranteed heavy strike after a guard break. I have, tried several different time spacings, including preemptive blocks against it. An Orochi's heavy hit after a grab will always land. A Peacekeeper cannot. A Peacekeeper CAN use her stabbing attack in a grapple for bleed damage. However, successfully executing all 3 stabs is gimmicky at best, and the stabs are blockable (blocking also gimmicky. I haven't really nailed down the mechanics for always getting 3 stabs OR successfully blocking the stabs.)

An Orochi can always land 2 overhead strikes following a successful Storm Rush, as the Peacekeeper is staggered and cannot block in time.

Stamina drain, subjectively, seems to drain from the peacekeeper a lot faster than the Orochi. I tend to find myself running dry much more often than even other aggressive Orochi.

What you inevitably have here is a counter-attack class with so many options that any approach you bring to it can be punished in several different ways, AND he still has one of the most powerful guard break attacks in the game because it's not blockable.

Many of these options do not leave the Orochi exposed for long. Why is this in issue?

For most classes I've observed, each failed attack leaves you with a window of exposure. For units like the Peacekeeper, with light attacks at least, that window is not very large, where as if you use a shield charge and whif, you're pretty much in a world of pain now. Generally, however, even if you were to use an attack with a fairly large exposure window, if the opponents follow up attack does not land, then they are then exposed and you can punish them. With the Orochi, if his counter-attack fails somehow, he'll still dance away before you can react. In a game where reach and spacing play huge roles, that is a massive advantage, especially over characters like the peacekeeper who are already limited in range.

Also what I'm not understanding is people saying that all of these things are punishable. While yes, technically there is a way to block each of these individual moves, the way they chain together and the amount of options, and speed of those options is what creates an issue, and ultimately what determines balance. All moves have a successful counter assuming a neutral, ready stance.

The Peacekeeper's Side Stab with the long blade leaves her exposed to guaranteed damage if she does not hit.

The Peacekeeper's Forward Rushing Stab is predictable, can only attack one of the three zones, and leaves her exposed to guaranteed damage if she does not hit.

The Peacekeeper's only other relevant special attack is her stab cancel, which is still just as blockable as a light attack, and leaves her just as fully exposed to Orochi top lights, even if she immediately dodges or tries to block.

And of course any time you try to block the top lights, you're exposing yourself to a counter break because you have an assassin block and have to manually input that block instead of watching for a counter guard break.

Not to mention the Orochi also sports the same deflection capabilities of the Peacekeeper, meaning a barrage of light attacks, the only attacks the peacekeeper has that are moderately safe to use, can be countered by any Orochi who has the reflexes.

Meanwhile, unless you are already pre-moving in the direction the Orochi dashed to, deflecting his slide slash by moving into it usually fails because your dash ends right at the inside edge of his range.

I'll continue to study the Orochi and try to come up with counters to each of these problems but as of right now he simply stands out as far too powerful a character. Which is why there are usually at least two, often 3 or 4 , present in each elimination match I play, and more present in duels than any other class I've seen.

[Osanger]

Blabla

Ubi will nerf them, whatever you can say, because nobody will want to be chainkill by a class for ****** with broken mechanics. They want the game to be sold nothing else, so stop arguing thanks you.

Way to post on the forums, zero constructive opinion and 100% potato.

You clearly have no idea of high level play and how the meta for this game will develop, if you did you would understand that the Orochi population at the highest level of play is literally the lowest of any char. All your post say's to me is you are butt hurt because Orochi players literally tear you apart because you are a bad..............keep on trucking tho big guy you might actually get better with practice but ya know im really thinking the saying "you can polish a turd" applies here.

You have a nice potato tho.............

[DaReaper9598]

Are you for real???

The whole combat system, outside of dominion is built on 1v1, so much so that it is literally impossible to 1v2 in this game unless you are facing complete noobs or have enviroment i.e ledge, spikes, fire to help you.

Of course they will focus on perfect high level play, because they clearly want to develop that side of the game, which i hasten to add i could easily see the majority of the player base may come from. This is because there is zero stat/gear interaction other than cosmetics therefore it is a pure skill based game, which is a massive draw.

For dominion you have the more mmo type stat/gear based focused gameplay if pure pvp is not your thing, but the thing is they can literally go wild with this side all they like as it has zero effecting on dueling and does not require the strict level of balancing dueling requires due to the chaotic nature of the fights.

To say this is not a VS fighting game is not only short sighted and stupid, it is totally ignoring half of the content and experience the game provides which is PURE VS.

No doubt you think the Orochi is unbalanced as you attack them like you do bots in dominion and wonder why you get annihilated...........learn how they do damage and how to counter them and your tune will change pretty fast.

I've literally been studying them all day, practicing several different ability combinations and strategies, and what it ultimately boils down to is while I may isolate a single Orochi players predictable nature, I can never come up with an effective solution for mitigating all of the options of higher tiered opponents. Opponents that I genuinely find to be slower, and take an early advantage over, often take out as much as half of my health off of one successful move chained into other moves that I do not have the means to block. That's not balance. 1 attack leading to 3 options that all have extremely high levels of damage and therefore enjoy the same amount of threat is not present in any other class I've seen. Since 2 top lights is about = to one heavy (I think it's a little less, since I can survive 2 top lights just barely after healing from below 1 bar) and since grabbing GUARANTEES a heavy hit, it's just as easy to use either, just as damaging, but take two entirely seperate inputs to counter. He could of course also follow this up with a side-dash and light attacks, even an immediate heavy attack. There's simply so many options open to him that in that moment he controls your character, not you. That should never be the case unless you're being punished for something. And if you get hit by an attack, that is your punishment. Punishment for all other classes comes from getting parried, deflected, countered, thrown, or out maneuvered in some way that does NOT include a large amount of damage on top of the ability to inflict more large amounts of damage.

I don't understand why people are acting like this lack of balance is something that needs to be denied. Smash Brothers recognized the differences in the characters and the impact it has on gameplay. That doesn't mean that other characters are useless, or that the top tier characters are unbeatable.

It's the same here. No, the Orochi is not some unbeatable God character that nobody has ever found a way to beat. But if his moves make him more versatile than the other characters, that is indeed a balance issue.

The fixes I would suggest aren't even that big.

Make the top strikes slow enough that a back dodge does indeed pull away from them.

Make the heavy strike inside of guard breaks blockable. That should be the case for every instance of the heavy strike, except ones designed to be unblockable.

Stop having the side strike hit characters that dodge in the opposite direction. It's meant to be a counter move, let it be a counter move.

Otherwise, he'll have such a decisive edge over the Peacekeeper going into release that it simply won't be fun to challenge against him. Right now it isn't for many people, and the people on here talking about how balance he is are also people who have mained Orochi. Of course they don't want him nerfed, and of course they seen their tactics get beat. But them having a bad or predictable match does not a solution make.

[DaReaper9598]

Way to post on the forums, zero constructive opinion and 100% potato.

You clearly have no idea of high level play and how the meta for this game will develop, if you did you would understand that the Orochi population at the highest level of play is literally the lowest of any char. All your post say's to me is you are butt hurt because Orochi players literally tear you apart because you are a bad..............keep on trucking tho big guy you might actually get better with practice but ya know im really thinking the saying "you can polish a turd" applies here.

You have a nice potato tho.............

What? I've been dueling all day, with a 92% win loss on my peacekeeper at the start of it (significantly lower now, but still in the 80's) I've been up in some very high tier play, played against guys with 2 renown in their Orochi (and plenty of other characters) and no, while Orochi's are not the only character I've seen, I've definitely seen a LOT of them compared to Wardens. The only non-Orochi characters to beat me today were a Warden whose parrying skills were so impeccable that he was picking off almost all of my light attacks, and a few Berzerkers who were very good at spacing out their combo timing so that they weren't always hitting at the exact first moment they could, to throw off my parry and deflect attempts.

Both of those are examples of play that rewards creative thinking and adaptation to the opposing characters abilities.

The Warden's reflexes were fast enough to match the fastest class in the game. Victory rewarded for skill.

The Berzerker's abilities were calculatedly withheld to bait in the speedy play of the Peacekeeper. Victory rewarded for skill.

The long line of Orochi's who all hit me with the exact same combos over and over again? Victory rewarded for mechanics.

A second fight with the Warden would have given me a chance to come up with a better tactic to face that opponent. (More guard breaks, more feinting).

A second fight with the Berzerker would have given me a chance to come up with a better tactic to face that opponent. (Spacing out my own attacks. Removing my prediction dodges and relying on reflexes more.)

A thousand fights against Orochi's who all use the same tactics and same move list to get the same finishing blow with a grab followed by heavy attack because they know it has to hit is not what I call good balance.

[xDemonsagex]

I play 20 duel today, 14 i fight against orochis, 6 against new people as actually learn to play, 6 easy victory's(bad matchmanking by do way)
let's go for orochis, 4 orochi's is actually bad, even dat i have so hard time to take they down, because simple spamming light atk give a hard time for most part of the class(not conqueror).
i play with conqueror, nobuchi.
again's conqueror, orochi can mantain a good distance when he simple await for a windows to land one hit, so he can chain a combo ou even if he land only ONE hit this hit is pretty hard, if you go for attack he have so much tool's to counter you, its impossible to you land one atack in a good orochi if you go forward, ok conqueror defensed classe, so he atack i block ou parry>grab i can land a heavy, what i can do? thrown away pray for one wall to actually give some pain to her, 8 match 6 loses.
nobuchi now, you go to atk, sidestep you can block, he can go back to safe or even go to more agressive, like is close to nobuchi she weak spot.
ok, lest go to defense orochi don't need go to "danger zone" against nobushi to try land hit's, he can take time until nobushi make any mistake to punishe her, and he can actually atk and have some safe, blocking a light atack don't garant a heavy or grab, if you go to light bad damage, 2 light sidestep more punishe in you...
sorry my bad english :P
i guess you guy's can see the point, its not about speed/damage, its about he KIT, its plenty huge, let all the other heroes in disadvantage...
i don't no what ubi gona do, but something need be done if this game have some dream to be "balanced"
or we gonna see great part of skilled players goin to orochi because hes extensive kit

[TheHonorVampire]

What a biased, one-sided argument that over-exaggerates all its strengths while dismissing relevant weaknesses. For someone who spent so much time playtesting I'm surprised you can come up with such a lacking discussion made up for by a superfluous word count.

Committed storm rush is so telegraphed it basically equals a free parry, Zephyr strikes are direction-locked and can be easily baited, Riptide Strike has one of the longest recoveries in the game. Agility is made up for by paper-thin health pool.

I don't know why you would claim and i quote you "Orochi deals such high damage" when its per strike damage is roughly the same as any other character. Theres even a community-made damage chart to prove you wrong.

Oh yeah... and he gets double damage on overhead light attacks... seems fair...

Oh yeah.. you seem to not realise the 2nd guaranteed does significantly less damage than the first, definitely need to nerf that part too so people lacking observational power won't mistake the double hit animation for double damage... seems fair...

Orochi seems to do everything Beserker can do, and more, and has longer attack range. Makes me wonder why anyone would ever want to play Beserker.

Didn't know an Orochi can soft feint his lights and heavies and get uninterruptables. So what else do you think an Orochi can do that's not in his listed moveset?

[DaReaper9598]

What a biased, one-sided argument that over-exaggerates all its strengths while dismissing relevant weaknesses. For someone who spent so much time playtesting I'm surprised you can come up with such a lacking discussion made up for by a superfluous word count.

Committed storm rush is so telegraphed it basically equals a free parry, Zephyr strikes are direction-locked and can be easily baited, Riptide Strike has one of the longest recoveries in the game. Agility is made up for by paper-thin health pool.

I don't know why you would claim and i quote you "Orochi deals such high damage" when its per strike damage is roughly the same as any other character. Theres even a community-made damage chart to prove you wrong.



Oh yeah.. you seem to not realise the 2nd guaranteed does significantly less damage than the first, definitely need to nerf that part too so people lacking observational power won't mistake the double hit animation for double damage... seems fair...



Didn't know an Orochi can soft feint his lights and heavies and get uninterruptables. So what else do you think an Orochi can do that's not in his listed moveset?

Ok. But what about my breakdown of his side by side to a peacekeeper?

Peacekeeper gets a lot of trash in game and in forums too, but you put the two against each other and there seems to be a clear advantage for one side over another.

I don't think the Orochi's basic combat damage is unreasonable. I think the inability to counter some of his chains is unfair.

Just because he is beatable does not mean he is as easy to beat as other characters. That is where my issue lies in

I'm not asking for a 100% balance side by side. Asymmetrical characters will always lead to disparity. But these are some pretty big advantages.

[ReJaCr]

Good thing about fighting Orochi is I can make four or five mistakes and get punished and still have a slither of health left. If an Orochi makes two mistakes it's game over. Yes they are fast and hard to connect on but once you do their health pool makes it too easy.

[KnifeInUrNeck]

Not every character matches up well against every character. That's just the nature of the game. You're saying you can handle everyone with relative ease but the Orichi which is a counterattacker. That's a win, dude.