Unbiased Balance Diagnosis | Forums

[sayi51]

To those of you speaking of reading your opponents and predicting their actions, I whole heartedly agree with that notion... however..




There is a problem with this line of thinking. We are talking about high skill level game play between two capable players. Let's say that both players are the same exact level of skill with the tools of their classes, they both have the same level of skill with reading, prediction and strategy. A fast character like the peacekeeper, as given in the example above would still have an edge against slower classes by a fair margin. Why? Her kit includes more mobility and mechanics. Lets say the peacekeeper started with a grab attempt, but was light attacked in response, or guard countered... The peace keeper might take a bit of damage, but then she can easily dodge away and have time to reevaluate her strategy.

She might be thinking, "well, they know to defend against guard breaks, I have more powerful initiation tools at my disposal with my long dodge range, my upward dodge into leap stab, or i can dodge in and throw a normal melee combo, then follow with a guard break when we get locked in."

meanwhile, her opponent will be wondering still about the skill level of this peace keeper, "All peace keepers usually open with the guard break, many continuously try for them over and over, i will prepare myself for a guard break because that is what most people currently do, the other possibility is that they wont try it again if they're smart, they may try to go for the leaping stab overhead closer."

In this scenario the peacekeeper has more options, because she can dictate range very easily on pretty much any classes outside the assassin category or nobushi. If I had to give both players in this scenario a success ratio it would have to be like 75% peace keeper and 25% for her opponent, its not impossible, you can guess her actions correctly, but thats just what it is, a guess. If you don't know the player, or they are particularly good at mix ups and remaining unpredictable, the edge will always go to the initiator / faster class. That is the problem with this concept. There is definitely room for prediction and reading, but in high skilled play it will only get you so far. That's why this game needs more windows for reaction. That's why assassin classes have the edge that they do. Increase counter guard break windows slightly and the success chance for the opponent goes up significantly, but not enough to shift the balance of power the other way.

That is why the shield guys have "Full Block" to guard any other openings an assassin could throw and the non-shielded guys have "uninterruptible" attacks to push through an incoming attack. There have been many times that my leap was countered by a Warlord's leap since that thing is uninterruptible. We both took damage but Warlord had the advantage on me as he not only threw my flow right out of the window but got the life lead. Your argument only presents what "Peacekeeper" has. In your scenario, the correct answer for the defender is:

"I will keep my guard on Up since that is the only way Leap comes and prepare for another GB or immediately use Full Block/Uninterruptible overhead if he comes from another side and then bash him/use whatever tool I have for advantage."

Hell some of them can even parry the leap into a grab for serious pain train.

I agree that the attacker has the advantage but that is not a Peacekeeper/Assassin related thing. The initiator will always have the advantage as they do what "they" want and not react to the other side. If you bring the "but Assassins can deflect incoming attacks so they still have the upper hand", I will say "the attacker can also feint to bait for a deflect attempt and then punish"

Again with a Warlord example: Heavy into All Guard into headbutt is a nice deflect bait, not to mention the uninterruptible frames it has.

[Swifte.]

KarmaGator,

I agree. I still have a hard time believing Kensei will be useless. This is a game about psyching out your opponent. Kensei, Warden and Berserker are the three notable characters that have their move set focused around this. The other classes have them too but it's not as fluid as the aforementioned three.

I'm far from being where I want to be too but that's why we practice.

When you get to play next, I recommend you record yourself and look over what you did right and what you did wrong in fights and pay special attention to the losses because that's where you learn best, I've found at least.

--------------------------------

Brother-Olrad,

I think it's pretty interesting because there have been a lot of posts about defensive play being the best option to pick and then you write up that fast characters have the edge.

I can see that faster toons have more options available to them but for now it's about adaptability. Once people get parrying down and baiting through feints, PKs and other fast characters get punished hard.

I said it before:

The game is too new for people to be creating tier lists complaining, what role (attacker/defender) is the best position to play and trying to find out what's 'meta'.

[Brother-Olrad]

That is why the shield guys have "Full Block" to guard any other openings an assassin could throw and the non-shielded guys have "uninterruptible" attacks to push through an incoming attack. There have been many times that my leap was countered by a Warlord's leap since that thing is uninterruptible. We both took damage but Warlord had the advantage on me as he not only threw my flow right out of the window but got the life lead. Your argument only presents what "Peacekeeper" has. In your scenario, the correct answer for the defender is:

"I will keep my guard on Up since that is the only way Leap comes and prepare for another GB or immediately use Full Block/Uninterruptible overhead if he comes from another side and then bash him/use whatever tool I have for advantage."

Hell some of them can even parry the leap into a grab for serious pain train.

I agree that the attacker has the advantage but that is not a Peacekeeper/Assassin related thing. The initiator will always have the advantage as they do what "they" want and not react to the other side. If you bring the "but Assassins can deflect incoming attacks so they still have the upper hand", I will say "the attacker can also feint to bait for a deflect attempt and then punish"

Again with a Warlord example: Heavy into All Guard into headbutt is a nice deflect bait, not to mention the uninterruptible frames it has.

I don't think the problem is the deflection, feints definitely work on that front. I think the problem is that you're not considering the full scope of what I said. Peacekeeper might try the lunge too but if it doesn't work you can still disengage faster than most classes can keeper you closed. A smart player would probably not even use the lunge however. They would go in like they did before when they tried to guard break but then open up with standard attacks, obviously that might not work, nothing is ever 100%. But they still have the edge. In fact you pretty much already conceded to my point by saying that "the initiator will always have the advantage as they do what they want and not react to the other side. Assassins ARE initiators, the kit is oriented around controlling the pacing of combat to their whim. They can escape, evaluate and then engage as they see fit, easily keeping other classes from being able to get anywhere near them. The edge of prediction goes to the attacker, not the defender, that is my point. Therefore prediction based game play encourages the use of assassin classes, that is why more windows for reaction need to be a thing.

[Brother-Olrad]

KarmaGator,

I agree. I still have a hard time believing Kensei will be useless. This is a game about psyching out your opponent. Kensei, Warden and Berserker are the three notable characters that have their move set focused around this. The other classes have them too but it's not as fluid as the aforementioned three.

I'm far from being where I want to be too but that's why we practice.

When you get to play next, I recommend you record yourself and look over what you did right and what you did wrong in fights and pay special attention to the losses because that's where you learn best, I've found at least.

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Brother-Olrad,

I think it's pretty interesting because there have been a lot of posts about defensive play being the best option to pick and then you write up that fast characters have the edge.

I can see that faster toons have more options available to them but for now it's about adaptability. Once people get parrying down and baiting through feints, PKs and other fast characters get punished hard.

I said it before:

Depends on your class. Conqueror for example, cannot feint to bait anything.

Also options are basically the same thing as adaptability, with a more limited move set you have less answers for things. Compare the warden to the orochi. The warden has a very limited move set, and the orochi has VASTLY more movement related skills. The back step overhead, the side dodges.. the only real edges the warden has that the orochi doesn't are the overhead counter (so you just don't attack up, pretty easy) and the shoulder rush combo. The orochi is still capable of all the feints, parries, and the mix ups that the warden is. The orochi simply has more tools. Thereby in the hands of two similarly skilled users the orochi will have the edge.

I'm not saying the orochi is a monster beast from hell and needs to be nerfed into oblivion. I've seen wardens kill orochis, I've seen every class kill an orochi. I'm just saying that if you look across theoretical averages based on the knowledge that we currently have orochis simply have stronger kits and will therefore be more powerful.

[sayi51]

While I understand your point, I can't agree to it. Because when I was playing defender classes, this was not a problem that I suffered from. I was able to predict, guard and punish just fine without letting the Assassin classes disengage before I got a hit or two in and then capitalized on the said advantage to force the fight into my pace. So since I lack the experience that let's you have this view, in fact since I have the opposite experience, I can't agree to your point.

To me, playing Defense is actually easier since I can react when I'm a defender. Finding openings or baiting openings is harder in my experiences from the games I have played if your opponent knows what they are doing. In my case, being the defender actually gives ME the advantage since I "personally" am better at reading people and poking for openings. That's why there is no "unbiased" opinion here. The opinions you got are from your battle experiences and the other experiences you have shared. The opinions in this thread are biased too.

You can say "well on average" but that means the arguments are biased towards the average, not "all players from all skill ranges".

What I want to point out is that most of Peacekeeper's tools have obvious tells or initiations that you can learn to read and counter. Because your argument pretty much puts the defenders as "bottom-tier" which is not true. Unless I am understanding it wrong.

Also letting the Peacekeeper pull back after a failed attempt is the defender's mistake. While the Peacekeeper is busy mentally recovering from the fail and rethinking their tactics, you can always launch a counter attack. Hell even as a Defender, you can bait the Peacekeeper into certain attacks to counter. As a defender you CAN initiate and have the initiator's advantage. "Taking the first step" is not an Assassin only deal and their kits are easily baited in the right hands.

Just like how you try to guard break through defenses as an Assassin or lunge at an unprotected side, the heavier classes can overcome the "mobility" of the Assassin classes with their own surprise kits. It's always funny to see a Peacekeeper failed their opening, dash back to recover only to see the Conqueror sprinting up for the shield tackle and body them into the ground for a free heavy.

Again, this is a "fighting" game. It's all about reading and mixups. You can read a fast attacker, you can even read their mobilities. You can read when an Orochi will side dash. Their speed is properly countered by the kits of heavier classes.


Edit: About the Conqueror not having a feint... Excuse me but what is Heavy Charge cancel into All Guard? And the Shield Bash Feint combo as the game calls it.

I'm just saying that if you look across theoretical averages based on the knowledge that we currently have orochis simply have stronger kits and will therefore be more powerful.

You mean the "knowledge that you have". Because according to the knowledge "I" have, Orochis are easy to read.

[Stankyfoot]

SSBM is a very different game, I feel like you can't really compare the two at all. For one, a strong meta doesn't have as much meaning in a game with more characters. In this game we have 12 total. As it currently stands, they power/option difference is large enough that I would feel comfortable making a tier list even this early on. I think this speaks volumes. And its made all the more serious considering that with only 12 characters you will be seeing a lot less of those who are on the lower rungs.

As for the idea that Assassins make sense being the prominent dueling class, maybe in lore or theme, but within the mechanics of the game... why would you do that? Just because dominion is the 'main game mode' presented by the game does not mean that is what most people will want to do, many streamers I have watched want to play the game competitively in 1v1s and 2v2s as well. The thought you presented is basically the same as saying, "Well,the biggest pie is cherry, and everyone can have a slice... but the vanilla pie is only for Gary and Joe.... and I like Joe best so he can have this apple pie all to himself." What if Gary or someone elses FAVORITE flavor was apple? They might begin to resent Joe... They might spend a lot of time becoming more like Joe and pay for extreme plastic surgery to just straight up become Joe.. Maybe they might be happy about being Joe now, but maybe they would feel dead inside wishing they were actually just... themselves.

All classes should be competitive in 1v1 in this game, otherwise youll have classes that... can only gank? That's not even the focus of the game. You're all great warriors with different styles, the other classes aren't supposed to just be support and play second fiddle for that orochi on their team. You know? This isn't an mmo with healers and dps and tanks. This is a fighting game, everyone should kill everyone.

Is it really that bad of a comparison? When it comes down to it both are games where the objective is to beat a live, human opponent. It doesn't matter that the mechanics are different, it could be Star Craft or Overwatch for instance, all that matters is that approaches and tactics will inevitably develop that none of us can reasonably predict at this point. Even in this very thread there are people preaching the viability of Tanks and theres literally a thread calling for every class other than the Warden to be nerfed. We should give it a little time before we start begging for adjustments.

[Brother-Olrad]

While I understand your point, I can't agree to it. Because when I was playing defender classes, this was not a problem that I suffered from. I was able to predict, guard and punish just fine without letting the Assassin classes disengage before I got a hit or two in and then capitalized on the said advantage to force the fight into my pace. So since I lack the experience that let's you have this view, in fact since I have the opposite experience, I can't agree to your point.

To me, playing Defense is actually easier since I can react when I'm a defender. Finding openings or baiting openings is harder in my experiences from the games I have played if your opponent knows what they are doing. In my case, being the defender actually gives ME the advantage since I "personally" am better at reading people and poking for openings. That's why there is no "unbiased" opinion here. The opinions you got are from your battle experiences and the other experiences you have shared. The opinions in this thread are biased too.

You can say "well on average" but that means the arguments are biased towards the average, not "all players from all skill ranges".

What I want to point out is that most of Peacekeeper's tools have obvious tells or initiations that you can learn to read and counter. Because your argument pretty much puts the defenders as "bottom-tier" which is not true. Unless I am understanding it wrong.

Also letting the Peacekeeper pull back after a failed attempt is the defender's mistake. While the Peacekeeper is busy mentally recovering from the fail and rethinking their tactics, you can always launch a counter attack. Hell even as a Defender, you can bait the Peacekeeper into certain attacks to counter. As a defender you CAN initiate and have the initiator's advantage. "Taking the first step" is not an Assassin only deal and their kits are easily baited in the right hands.

Just like how you try to guard break through defenses as an Assassin or lunge at an unprotected side, the heavier classes can overcome the "mobility" of the Assassin classes with their own surprise kits. It's always funny to see a Peacekeeper failed their opening, dash back to recover only to see the Conqueror sprinting up for the shield tackle and body them into the ground for a free heavy.

Again, this is a "fighting" game. It's all about reading and mixups. You can read a fast attacker, you can even read their mobilities. You can read when an Orochi will side dash. Their speed is properly countered by the kits of heavier classes.


Edit: About the Conqueror not having a feint... Excuse me but what is Heavy Charge cancel into All Guard? And the Shield Bash Feint combo as the game calls it.


You mean the "knowledge that you have". Because according to the knowledge "I" have, Orochis are easy to read.

I think am beginning to perceive some level of salt in your words.

Riddle me this, if Orochis are so easy to read, and you think playing defensive is actually easier than offense, what would you think about a parrying/counter attacking orochi.? Sounds like your experience has probably been against a lot of people who used the same play style. Saying that you have the knowledge that Orochis are easy to read completely disregards a lot of very good players out there that i'm certain could throw you for a loop.

I'm going off of my personal experience from the culmination of the last three tests. I've gotten to reputation 3 3 and 2 during those times. I have an awful lot of time in the game. And I've done very well for myself a majority of the time, but I don't think that my opinion alone is law. I've talked to quite a few players discussing many mechanics and classes in that time as well. You are entitled to your opinions but I think I can tell we are not going to see eye to eye on this.

I like playing defensively too, mained conqueror after all, but I'm telling you now that a good peacekeeper is pretty much impossible to lock down as a conq. I think it kind of funny how you describe the scenario "While the peacekeeper is busy mentally recovering from the fail and rethinking their tactics you can always launch a counter attack." like they've been awestruck or literally mentally dazed for a time and somehow unable to take any action. Have you seen a peacekeeper button mash dodge? You cant keep up at combat pace, you can unlock and sprint, but so can they in kind, and they're faster. So that's kind of a silly moot point to me.

The note on the conqueror is an alright point except for the fact that they're so slow and the stamina cost on the shield rush is pretty ridiculous and wouldn't leave you much room for a combo, and even after preforming the combo if you did you hit with anything that inflicts stamina damage there would be a very good chance that you completely run out. God help you if they parry.

I looked at the other thread/write up you posted. Saw you played up to level 10 Conqueror and top was a prestige 1 level 15 peace keeper. You've brought up a lot of points that quite honestly don't make any sense to me at all, though there are definitely some things I agree with. Seems to me like you're trying to defend your class and or e peen or something. But I don't know you and won't jump to that conclusion.

I feel like I can't debate this with the current information available. Like I said I plan on collecting frame data in the future which should shed some light on this. Otherwise it will just inevitably be people ramming their opinions into each other.

[Mjolnir1337]

I feel like I am late to the party. My disclosure: I am a noob. I have logged maybe 12 hours in the beta this weekend.

I have a question, and after seeing this thread, wonder if this could be a very possible balance proposal as well. Or, again, maybe im just bad. But here it is.


Something I noticed when learning the game, was I would often get hit by an Orochi, and because my initial reaction is to press a button to block (rather than merely hold a joystick in that direction) I found myself not blocking but being hit all the time. I eventually got over this, but something I just cant help but get over is that when I get hit with a light attack, if I am initiating a light attack of my own, my attack stops, and I get hit. Further, lets say the Orochi, or pick another class, light attack combos me and then (because I am a noob) I go to quick attack him back, it (again) stops my attack when I am hit.

I get help but feel like RATHER than my attack "stopping" we should merely "trade blows" with the attacker. Maybe this is already in the game. I have done this OTHER times and even once had my opponent and I kill each other at the same time. But ONE of my points in even writing this - none of this is clear or taught in any tutorial or video and even to a seasoned PVP gamer who logged 10-12+ hours in this beta, some of these little nuances are still not clear to me.

Heck, a good example of this is me learning AFTER the beta ended that you cannot guard break while your opponent is mid-attack as a way to stop his attack. I cant even tell how many times this killed me. I never received "feedback" from the game that this didnt work, I just thought I did it wrong, or wasnt close enough, etc. Why? Well because in almost any other game I have played, a quick "grab" (if it lands first) overrides an attack and stops them from attacking. Same with IRL. Guy swinging a sword, I run up and grab him? Kinda hard to hit you with a sword if I am holding you... You get my point.

Things like this, IMO, are what make it very new player unfriendly.

MY POINT and TLDR: What if light attacks and combos didnt stop someone from attacking. Then the Assasin types, you could merely "exchange attacks" with and maybe outlive them with a superior HP pool. It would atleast give you an option. If you are getting hit with a 3 light attack combo, you COULD choose to (instead of block) hit them with your own 3 attack combo and merely "trade damage" OR, maybe decide to try and get a heavy hit off while they are stuck in light attack animation, forcing a feint attack into a block/parry/dodge.

This is the type of thing that seems it would add more skill, but also be more new player friendly....

Thoughts? Am I just being a total noob about this game?

[Brother-Olrad]

We should give it a little time before we start begging for adjustments.

I agree with this. I don't think anyone should be super hasty about calling for radical changes. I mostly made this thread to check with an even broader audience and have a discussion.

There are some things that I still need to test when the game fully releases, some things could definately change my opinions on things. We don't have anything concrete yet, that is going to take data and time.

[Brother-Olrad]

I feel like I am late to the party. My disclosure: I am a noob. I have logged maybe 12 hours in the beta this weekend.

I have a question, and after seeing this thread, wonder if this could be a very possible balance proposal as well. Or, again, maybe im just bad. But here it is.


Something I noticed when learning the game, was I would often get hit by an Orochi, and because my initial reaction is to press a button to block (rather than merely hold a joystick in that direction) I found myself not blocking but being hit all the time. I eventually got over this, but something I just cant help but get over is that when I get hit with a light attack, if I am initiating a light attack of my own, my attack stops, and I get hit. Further, lets say the Orochi, or pick another class, light attack combos me and then (because I am a noob) I go to quick attack him back, it (again) stops my attack when I am hit.

I get help but feel like RATHER than my attack "stopping" we should merely "trade blows" with the attacker. Maybe this is already in the game. I have done this OTHER times and even once had my opponent and I kill each other at the same time. But ONE of my points in even writing this - none of this is clear or taught in any tutorial or video and even to a seasoned PVP gamer who logged 10-12+ hours in this beta, some of these little nuances are still not clear to me.

Heck, a good example of this is me learning AFTER the beta ended that you cannot guard break while your opponent is mid-attack as a way to stop his attack. I cant even tell how many times this killed me. I never received "feedback" from the game that this didnt work, I just thought I did it wrong, or wasnt close enough, etc. Why? Well because in almost any other game I have played, a quick "grab" (if it lands first) overrides an attack and stops them from attacking. Same with IRL. Guy swinging a sword, I run up and grab him? Kinda hard to hit you with a sword if I am holding you... You get my point.

Things like this, IMO, are what make it very new player unfriendly.

MY POINT and TLDR: What if light attacks and combos didnt stop someone from attacking. Then the Assasin types, you could merely "exchange attacks" with and maybe outlive them with a superior HP pool. It would atleast give you an option. If you are getting hit with a 3 light attack combo, you COULD choose to (instead of block) hit them with your own 3 attack combo and merely "trade damage" OR, maybe decide to try and get a heavy hit off while they are stuck in light attack animation, forcing a feint attack into a block/parry/dodge.

This is the type of thing that seems it would add more skill, but also be more new player friendly....

Thoughts? Am I just being a total noob about this game?

I'd say have some patience, give it some time and maybe try to actively talk to people or record yourself.

If everyone could just lay into eachother and cut themselves to ribbons... well... that's not exactly engaging gameplay.. and it would actually make assassins weaker than they should be.

Maybe look into classes that have some hyper poise moves like the berserkers leap attack. Some attacks in the game will allow you to swing through enemy attacks, but you usually have to set them up. But hey if thats the playstyle you're looking for, its kinda there.. though focusing on that in particular would probably be pretty much the most risky i could think of considering its usually pretty telegraphed. I'd say the best option is just take your time and learn to block, if you're really struggling, maybe start with conqueror for his superior block which makes peoples attacks bounce off his shield, will probably help you get into the motion of it, then apply what you learn there to other classes and mechanics.