Junior Member
I can agree with you on some points, but to give some alternate perspective who played all the heroes to learn them, and focused on Kensai and Warlord the rest of the time.
For the parrying concern you had the conqueror is not great as following up a hard parry as he has to much wind-up, but this is not the case for most other heroes. That is part of the reason the conq has superior guard heavy attacks, which allows you to immediately chain into an unavoidable heavy attack when parrying someone. It says its the same timing as parry, but from my experience it actually isn't. It's the same case for the warlord superior guard light attacks. If timed right the warlord can light attack "parry", but I find for both the warlord and the conq the frame timing for this is actually earlier than the parry timing.
Also the conq. is extremely easy for the opponent to parry, and is very punishable. If a conq. throws out a basic heavy attack that is just asking to get punished.
As for the Kensei, I find it a mid-tier hero. It has a great basic tool-set that makes use of several simple mechanics. However he doesn't have much beyond that. You have to find out how to make best use of these simple tools which synergize with each other. For skilled players this comes in the form of excellent spacing, environmental use, feigning, and their ability to mix-up their playstyle in an instant. tbh Kensei is one of the highest skill ceilings heroes, simply because one has to become so varied and confident with the fundamentals of the game. He doesn't have any flashy combos or gimmiks that many other heros can lean on.
If I had to sum up the Kensei I'd say he is simple and pure, and many will overlook him. As without mastering his basic toolset he seems quite lackluster and clunky.
Junior Member
yeah but this only works when the enemy is near a wall. When they just roll backwards, you can`t do anything... It´s so much harder to fight on an open field.Originally Posted by Swifte. Go to original post
Junior Member
@Swifte The concept of the Kensei is pretty great and he is definitely fun to play.
The problem with feinting atm is that with all the light-attack spamming assassins running around, even if you back up and feint correctly their side dodges and/or integrated gap closers usually just earn you a blade to the face for your troubles (which also interrupt that attack your were trying to do).
Honestly, if they would just go the whole way with the "mind game" concept all would be fine:
(1) All heavy attacks can be soft feinted (cancelled) into heavies (all directions into the other 2 directions), with side ones having hyperarmour. Same with the lights, just without the hyperarmour (because that would be not op at all).
(2) Make the finisher actually good. All directions (both original and the cancels) are now unblockable. The top finisher can't be evaded to the rear and the side ones only to the rear. They are still really easy to parry so that would not be op.
With these (relatively) simple changes (and balancing assassin evade iframes) he would be great. Granted, he would be bloody hard to play at a high level, but this game is about skill so that would be completely acceptable.
Edit: Changing his difficulty from "easy" to "hard" (which is much more realistic tbh) should be a given, even in the state he is currently in. No need to confuse newer players.
Junior Member
Dekyde,
I've had too much experience with Kensei (duels, brawls, dom) to accept that the three basic combos and one intermediate combo I listed as examples only work when they're walled.
That's what the mind games are all about, playing those chains in open fields to remain unpredictable. It gets easier to get them walled for easy chunks.
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KarmaGator,
Remember what I said about adaptability?
The light spam (read: basic combo) Orochis are ridiculously easy to counter. Kensei is a space character as in he takes it up and creates it and he does it well. Orochi needs to invade that space and you don't need to do flashy feints with them at all. Play counter to their counter and you make short work of them, especially if you can parry and tech really well.
Granted, you can feint with them but that's a low risk/decent reward at best. It all comes down to practice and experience.
I agree that his tag should be switched from easy to hard as well because he is far from an easy hero to even get a firm understanding of.
Member
Those two problems contradict eachother.Originally Posted by Moxas1 Go to original post
The 1st way to counter GB is a matter of practice. Try to think how good you'll get in a few months.
The second way is fine. A war of fast attack sis fine. That's basically what spacing is. Note that this has nothing to do with spamming. You need to manage your range know who has frame advantage, in order to decide whether to defend or attack. And if you think this is a problem, it also contradicts your first problem above.
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This thread is well organized. But if it has any bias, it is simply the bias from a relative beginner. Dudes who had more experience with game have different things to say (not that I am one of them).
Junior Member
The "light attack spam fest" as you put it is a very valid tactic. In other fighting games, if you see someone spam grabs, you start using your light punch or kick to punish them into a confirm and a combo or at least make them back off.
As for the "extremely small window", most of the guard breaks come out really slow. Now before you go "********!" let me explain. Most characters don't have a "combo or dodge into grab" that goes perfectly clean. For example:
Peacekeeper suddenly dashes up to you and leaps in your face. The change from dash to leap is instant and seamless. However, if the same Peacekeeper dashes up to you and tries to grab you, she has to wait for a bit for her dash animation to end before she can initiate a grab.
Now what does this mean? This means, just like any other fighting game, you have to learn the "habits" of the players. For example, as PK, I do Dash up leap > follow up and then grab a LOT. I mean almost 90% of the time I leap, I follow with a grab. RARELY people figure that out and counter accordingly. This doesn't mean the grab is broken, this means the players panic a lot and miss their timings instead of keeping calm.
If you notice a player spamming guard break, you adapt and start countering them or light slashing. It's called "punishing" in the fighting game terms. If your opponent is stupid enough to NOT learn from their mistakes and keep getting into your light slashes while they try to guard break... Well, they were not going to give you an enjoyable fight anyways since they can't adapt.
And half, if not more of a fighting game is all about "predicting". It's all about "reading" your opponent, knowing their strings as a character, learning their tactics as a player and adapting a solution to the problem. Reacting only comes to play when "you know the attack is coming, you just don't know when so you prepare to react" or when the battle is in "poking" phase where you fish for openings.
I'm not going to **** on you, saying "git gud skrub". I will instead tell you this. "Throughout my experience with the Beta, I have never came across an opponent that I couldn't figure out a counter for. Every time I lost, it was my fault for not adapting fast enough. Every time I won, it was because they couldn't adapt to me.". If you have seen the video I have posted around in this forum, my 1v1 session as Peacekeeper, Conqueror and Orochi, you will see that I was able to figure out the opponent's playstyle most of the time and immediately adapt a strategy tailored for their habits... Aside from that PK vs PK fight at the start where I got rekt. I couldn't adapt fast enough to that and panicked.
Fighting games take time to master, it really is too early for us to say "x is broken" "y mechanic is stupid". However, I will always appreciate the level-headed discussion threads where people don't **** on each other for using a certain tactic or a character.
Junior Member
@Swifte
It could definitely be, that my prediction - that the Kensei will be useless once people understand his moveset - turns out to be completely false in a duel between highly skilled players.
Frankly, I would be glad if it does.
I am by no means a god-tier player (though I would consider myself to be part of the top 10% atm - humblebrag
In retrospect, I think my play could be improved by playing less offensively and regularly reacting to enemy movement beyond parries and gb/tech. Especially feints are something I have to learn, having mostly discarded them as pretty useless halfway through each test. Also my spacing and zone-control could be better. Well, no-one was born a master
Not that it would matter too much for my Kensei-skills, atleast not for the next two months or so as then it will be Lawbringer-time again..... :3 (god I can't wait to play my main again)
Member
Great thread with some great points. But, on the topic of Assassins, it kind of makes sense that they are the prominent duelling class, as getting kills is their ultimate objective. Ultimately Dominion is the main game mode and I feel like the other classes are better represented there. I really think the class balance, given that its not even out yet, is pretty solid and that Ubisoft should wait a month or so before tweaking it.
Remember, SSBM is still occasionally experiencing shakeups in the meta and that game came out in 2002. Its really hard to predict what exactly players are going to come up with given enough time with this game.
Junior Member
To those of you speaking of reading your opponents and predicting their actions, I whole heartedly agree with that notion... however..
Originally Posted by sayi51 Go to original post
There is a problem with this line of thinking. We are talking about high skill level game play between two capable players. Let's say that both players are the same exact level of skill with the tools of their classes, they both have the same level of skill with reading, prediction and strategy. A fast character like the peacekeeper, as given in the example above would still have an edge against slower classes by a fair margin. Why? Her kit includes more mobility and mechanics. Lets say the peacekeeper started with a grab attempt, but was light attacked in response, or guard countered... The peace keeper might take a bit of damage, but then she can easily dodge away and have time to reevaluate her strategy.
She might be thinking, "well, they know to defend against guard breaks, I have more powerful initiation tools at my disposal with my long dodge range, my upward dodge into leap stab, or i can dodge in and throw a normal melee combo, then follow with a guard break when we get locked in."
meanwhile, her opponent will be wondering still about the skill level of this peace keeper, "All peace keepers usually open with the guard break, many continuously try for them over and over, i will prepare myself for a guard break because that is what most people currently do, the other possibility is that they wont try it again if they're smart, they may try to go for the leaping stab overhead closer."
In this scenario the peacekeeper has more options, because she can dictate range very easily on pretty much any classes outside the assassin category or nobushi. If I had to give both players in this scenario a success ratio it would have to be like 75% peace keeper and 25% for her opponent, its not impossible, you can guess her actions correctly, but thats just what it is, a guess. If you don't know the player, or they are particularly good at mix ups and remaining unpredictable, the edge will always go to the initiator / faster class. That is the problem with this concept. There is definitely room for prediction and reading, but in high skilled play it will only get you so far. That's why this game needs more windows for reaction. That's why assassin classes have the edge that they do. Increase counter guard break windows slightly and the success chance for the opponent goes up significantly, but not enough to shift the balance of power the other way.
Junior Member
SSBM is a very different game, I feel like you can't really compare the two at all. For one, a strong meta doesn't have as much meaning in a game with more characters. In this game we have 12 total. As it currently stands, they power/option difference is large enough that I would feel comfortable making a tier list even this early on. I think this speaks volumes. And its made all the more serious considering that with only 12 characters you will be seeing a lot less of those who are on the lower rungs.Originally Posted by Stankyfoot Go to original post
As for the idea that Assassins make sense being the prominent dueling class, maybe in lore or theme, but within the mechanics of the game... why would you do that? Just because dominion is the 'main game mode' presented by the game does not mean that is what most people will want to do, many streamers I have watched want to play the game competitively in 1v1s and 2v2s as well. The thought you presented is basically the same as saying, "Well,the biggest pie is cherry, and everyone can have a slice... but the vanilla pie is only for Gary and Joe.... and I like Joe best so he can have this apple pie all to himself." What if Gary or someone elses FAVORITE flavor was apple? They might begin to resent Joe... They might spend a lot of time becoming more like Joe and pay for extreme plastic surgery to just straight up become Joe.. Maybe they might be happy about being Joe now, but maybe they would feel dead inside wishing they were actually just... themselves.
All classes should be competitive in 1v1 in this game, otherwise youll have classes that... can only gank? That's not even the focus of the game. You're all great warriors with different styles, the other classes aren't supposed to just be support and play second fiddle for that orochi on their team. You know? This isn't an mmo with healers and dps and tanks. This is a fighting game, everyone should kill everyone.
