Senior Member
And its on screen for 10 frames on console.Originally Posted by Aarpian2 Go to original post
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I have to agree that there seems to be a massive skill gap between good players and bad players.
I see player whining about AI level 2 being too strong (lol) and now I see people complaining about guardbreaks. You can just light attack through them OR back away (most GB have short distance). Furthermore, they are extremely easy to counter on reaction. They are virtually a non-threat. The only time I ever failed a counter was if I am caught mid-dash. I thought maybe I wasn't fast enough so paid attention and realized it's because I was dashing. If you were just standing there or attacking and you get GB, you have time to think "oh, can I push him off the ledge" before you react to the GB. I literally have time to judge that before countering it. Yes, a counter GB will push an opponent off just like a normal GB push. I love killing noobs who spam GB on me on a bridge, it's a free kill.
I think the reason the skill gap is so big is because this game attracted a lot of hardcore fighters from fighting games that have advanced frame rate analysis and tight combo link windows. If Daigo or Justin Wang can time and counter every bit of Chun Lol SF3 super, then yes... You should be able to reaction counter a GB. ROFL... It's honestly not hard at all. It's a beginner level skill
Senior Member
But what about players, who don't have epic skills and specific reflexes - yet?
Should they be excluded? I don't think so, because this game (new ip) needs players, if it wants to be successful. The elite will not be enough and matchmaking with a rich pool is always better.
The counter guard break window is tight and maybe even a bit too short on consoles (controller issues).
The game is really good and the combat feels great. I started as a bloody noob (and I still am) but I could see and feel progress. Sadly, the level one bots, whole being relentless, done use guard breaks (and counter gb) and "advanced combos". The first time a new player is confronted with them in a real combat situation (the tutorial is not great), is in pvp fights. Most new players can not deal with this and feel cheated, because they thought, that the tutorial taught them well (enough). The level two bot does use guard breaks but at the sane time, destroys new players. In this situation, the learning effect is near zero and the players progress stagnates. Stagnating progress leads to frustration and frustration leads to resells.
We don't want resells. as a community, we want lots of players to play WITH (even if we are beating the crap out of each other).
Member
This is really a great post. This is my experience too. I am new to the game. Played beta the last few days. I think my connection just sucks because I could not counter GB once in a LIVE game. I played the lvl 1 bot and won easily. More a matter of just learning how to cheese the bot rather than actually mimic combat. So I jumped to level 3 which wiped the floor with me. I won once out of like 40 matches. He was doing stuff I had never seen before. I get into a matchmaking fight, and people are using stuff I had never even seen. Heck, even after 10+ hours in the beta I just NOW realized that you can light attack through GB - which explains why my GBs never landed on players eventhough the animation showed me it did on my screen.Originally Posted by DrExtrem Go to original post
Half the time I lose a fight, I cant pinpoint WHY I lost. Maybe its a connection issue for me. I have very little issue in blocking attacks - I can do that maybe 80-90% of the time, however advanced players who can effectively chain a "combo" WITH A GB get me everytime. I not only dont see it coming (this is where I lack skill) but even when I do see it, I press the button and it does nothing.. Maybe its by bad latency (because I am forced to use a VPN due to having NAT issues which means I ping another location first, causing higher ping). I am new to this game and TYPE of game, but can say confidently am well "above average" in terms of gaming skill playing games for decades, shooters, MMOs, Fighting games etc, you name it. My reaction time is also above average, and I had problems with countering GB.
So I think it varies per person. Its possible if I was giving a better connection, with no lag, I might counter GB 90% of the time (like you) maybe I am <.1sec off everytime due to latency.
Point being. This game is very noob UN-friendly. 10+ hours in the beta, and I feel like I am just now competent in the game... I still lose fights I have no idea WHY I lost. I still try to do things that dont work and how no idea why they didnt work. Thats part of my issue.
Learning priority of things. Like knowing you cant GB during a light attack. This got me killed a TON of times. The clunky-ness of the "target lock" system. The SLOW movement speed during guard stance. The lack of sprinting in guard stance.
Maybe one of you can answer, but I would do things like try and "light attack" during an enemy light attack combo. My THOUGHT was we would merely "trade blows" but this seems to be wrong... I get hit 2 more times as he finishes and cant do anything but block? See. This is the type of stuff I dont know, and I logged pretty decent time in the beta. This is the type of stuff that newer players dont know and have no way of knowing when they first play the game unless someone tells them OR they spend hours testing every possible imaginable thing the game has in it (another thing I recently found out is the Warden has two animation durations on a top heavy attack depending on previous stance etc.) stuff like this, that makes a HUGE difference unless you are TAUGHT. Problem is... The tutorial doesnt and honestly CANT teach all these little things. So it leaves the new player feeling like they dont have enough information... The veteran walking away with an easy win thinking "everyone who plays this game is just really bad" when in reality, it really just comes down to the mechanics of the game not being intuitive and some players "get it" quickly, and play enough to learn this stuff and the rest of us have to be taught or test everything imaginable to know what you can or cant do and when. etc.
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The game's system is how it is and I wouldn't expect grand changes happening. It will always be very demanding. But there being such a huge gap between "bad" and "good" doesn't mean that the bad players have to suffer humiliating loss after humiliating loss or the good ones have to get bored to tears. Basically, it's all going to come to how good matchmaking is. That at the end of the day will be the key and how people can organically GIT GUD without getting too frustrated. I have mixed feelings about how the matchmaking is working at the moment, but it's of the HIGHEST priority that the server i capable of pairing players properly to avoid massive amounts of quitting.
Member
Matchmaking will take care of the skill gap you guys noticed in the beta, assuming they dial in the match making on release.
Member
When someone is attacking you with a combo you can't get out of it by pressing buttons. That's why it is a chain. They are hitting you with their sword and you are getting hit by a sword. This results in them having a recovery time that is equal to readying a new attack, and you having a recovery time of being stunned because you were slashed across the chest. Your character is at a disadvantage because by being outplayed you have been put in the position of being hit, and they have successfully hit you. So as you're pressing light attack to hit him while you're stunned, he is just hitting you. It's great that you used some sort of thought in the first place but it was based on the conclusion that you were on even terms. You will never "out-attack" someone who is using a chain on you after he successfully gets an opening and makes a connection. This is true in every fighting game I've every played and makes the most sense.Originally Posted by Mjolnir1337 Go to original post
It would be untrue to say that this is the only thing you could do though. You can also parry. A highly underutilized skill as I saw it through the beta. This counters their attack and sets you up for some type of guaranteed damage. You have time to do some sort of action before he hits you again. It's just that you don't have enough time to throw out your own attack (as it should be).
For the record. I don't believe the Warden has two animations. I think it's just the time it takes to switch guards which does take a significant amount of time when you're talking about an opening that is just a couple of frames. Could be wrong, but I've exclusively played the Warden and it doesn't look like 2 animations to me.
This is a game that will take time to learn. The tutorials do seem to assume you understand some basics. They don't say, "If someone is hitting you maybe you should block instead of mashing attack buttons because you're GETTING STABBED!". To me, this is just common sense. But if someone is only used to hack and slash games that require all but zero skill than maybe it's not. The tutorials need to explain the game from the ground up as they would to a child. Like the classic story of Einstein's explanation of the Theory of Relativity to a classroom of young children. It's the only way to make it comprehensive enough to people so they can stop blaming the game, and blame themselves. Unfortunately, in our world of instant gratification, this game doesn't seem to be getting the praise it deserves because it's never someone's own fault, it's always because it's "too hard". The amount of threads on this forum alluding to Guard Breaks being too difficult to break is a perfect example. They are fine. I think your big problem was the VPN. Any fighting game environment needs to be played with a damn good connection. Some people will only play games like this on a LAN because it has basically zero latency. And that's not just with GB's. That could be an explanation right there for why many things felt like they wouldn't or didn't work for you. For sure. I mean, one might argue GB's are too easy to break. Fighting people at my level (Reputation 3 players), they could break them every single time if it wasn't combined very sneakily with head games. But regardless, you're going to have to build the reaction time, the knowledge of when people are most likely to use them so you're expecting it in the first place, and muscle memory to combat them. This will require time, effort, and learning. Not the three most popular words in my generation today =/
I meant NONE of this toward you. The fact that you asked questions is important. It's going to make you a better fighter. So I would argue that the game is plenty intuitive, but that's a convenient excuse for anyone who hasn't built the necessary skills and knowledge base yet to beat people better than them. All you are describing at the end of your post is people who are more intelligent than the rest who understand and apply things quicker. This applies to ANYTHING in the world that is complex and requires training/knowledge. So really, the veteran walking away from an easy win thinking that the other person is just bad, is right. Comparatively speaking. It's just the way it is. I hope none of this came off as pretentious, I just think people need more time with the game and they will find it to be more rewarding than a simple hack and slash. Have a good one!
Junior Member
Yeah I think the window to counter a guard break should be wider
