Parry V.S. deflect - Is there room for both? | Forums

[Aarpian]

So with the changes to deflect - moving its activation from blocking to dodging - it's easy to see the similarities between deflect and parrying.

Both of them are an active defensive measure with a built-in risk that rewards you with the opportunity to counterattack if you pull it off.
Both require a similar input (analogue stick in correct direction + action button) with similar timing
Both can be anticipated and punished by players feinting

So, in its current incarnation, any scenario in which one might use a parry, they also have the option to use a deflect and visa versa. Since they both do the same thing in the same situation, the choice of whether to parry or deflect is going to be judged solely on which one is better (best risk/reward ratio). I can see two major problems with this:

1. One is always going to be used instead of the other. Attempts to balance the two in their current states will be pointless, as all it will do is result in one being used and the other not
2. If deflect is changed to be significantly different from parry, then assassins once again have the most defensive options in the game despite supposedly being a class focused on aggression. If deflect and parry can't be punished in the same way, then you further decrease the odds of being able to mind-game the defender and hit him by baiting a response to a feinted attack

I propose that deflect simply replaces parry as a mechanic for assassins, and assassins or deflect are suitably tweaked to compensate

I think this fits thematically with the lack of permanent block stance and more mobile playstyle, and gives another tool to balance with if parry users or deflect users need their defensive options adjusting further down the line.

[Dark-Thomy]

Very true !..

Although I'd like first to play the beta. But from the last alpha I was reaching to the same thought.

And I think it wouldn't be a bad thing to replace parries by deflects for assassins.

[Dark-Thomy]

That's not the topic at all.

By the way , deflect actually doesn't knock the opponent's attack away, even if it was a light attack.

[MathiasCB]

The deflects we have right now is weaker than the parry. Wouldn't really mind the suggestion but that would require them to buff the deflects.

The only one that can make somewhat of a use of the deflect right now is the Zerk, and that is heavily situational as it requires a wall. The only times you'd actually have to prefer the deflect over the Parry if when the opponent is out of reach for a GB after the parry.

So the first example you had is totally correct. One is stronger than the other.
The deflects are pretty weak, what made them strong before was how easy they were to pull off.

[CaptainPwnet]

Yeah deflect is in a weird place right now. Before it was too easy and happened unintentionally far too often since it was tied to blocking so it was really good. But now there is no reason to deflect at all since not only is parry the more powerful option, but deflects don't give any reward to the assassins that they don't already get off their side dodge attacks. So why would you risk a late timed dodge when you can just dodge and attack normally for the same effect?

The only exception atm is indeed the zerker and only in a situational sense as you can throw into a wall or hazard. The throw also does stam damage so you can knock someone down if used at the right time(which parries also do lol).

But in the end deflect as it is now is all flash no substance.

[MisterWillow]

One is always going to be used instead of the other. Attempts to balance the two in their current states will be pointless, as all it will do is result in one being used and the other not

Both are viable because they provide different effects. If you're outnumbered, going for a parry is probably a better idea---especially if you're playing Berserker---because even Orochi's allows an enemy to get a free attack on you despite its speed. In a duel situation, a deflect is generally the better option, since you have an instant counter attack at your disposal with next to no risk unless you flub the timing and get hit when trying to dodge.

If deflect is changed to be significantly different from parry, then assassins once again have the most defensive options in the game despite supposedly being a class focused on aggression. If deflect and parry can't be punished in the same way, then you further decrease the odds of being able to mind-game the defender and hit him by baiting a response to a feinted attack

First of all, Assassins aren't necessarily focused on aggression. Berserker clearly is, but Orochi is supposed to be more focused on agility, evasion, and counterattacking, which is why their deflect functions the way it does. Peacekeeper's off-limits, so I'll leave it there.

Secondly, deflect and parry can be punished the same way via feints, since they changed the way they're activated. If you dodge to deflect and the enemy feints and throws a light, you're getting hit.

[Aarpian]

Both are viable because they provide different effects. If you're outnumbered, going for a parry is probably a better idea---especially if you're playing Berserker---because even Orochi's allows an enemy to get a free attack on you despite its speed. In a duel situation, a deflect is generally the better option, since you have an instant counter attack at your disposal with next to no risk unless you flub the timing and get hit when trying to dodge.

Parry guarantees you a guard break if you're in range, which can net you a side heavy, overhead if they're near a wall, or instant kill if they're next to a ledge. Parrying a light guarantees you a heavy attack without guardbreaking, and parrying a light guarantees you a side heavy. Deflect is straight-up inferior.

First of all, Assassins aren't necessarily focused on aggression. Berserker clearly is, but Orochi is supposed to be more focused on agility, evasion, and counterattacking, which is why their deflect functions the way it does. Peacekeeper's off-limits, so I'll leave it there.

If you want to take Orochi down the path of counterattacker, then there's nothing to stop them balancing that around having deflect instead of parrying. Having both means either parry is better and deflect adds nothing to the kit, or parry is worse and suddenly assassins have better defense because nobody else has access to deflect and has to use parry.

Secondly, deflect and parry can be punished the same way via feints, since they changed the way they're activated. If you dodge to deflect and the enemy feints and throws a light, you're getting hit.

Yes, they can currently be punished the same way (one of the many similarities). My point was that, in the event that they change deflect to function differently to how it does now, and it can no longer be punished the same way, then assassins would again have a superior defence by virtue of having more options, further reducing the chances of success of anyone trying to bait and punish a specific response.

[PowerSenpai]

The deflects we have right now is weaker than the parry. Wouldn't really mind the suggestion but that would require them to buff the deflects.

The only one that can make somewhat of a use of the deflect right now is the Zerk, and that is heavily situational as it requires a wall. The only times you'd actually have to prefer the deflect over the Parry if when the opponent is out of reach for a GB after the parry.

So the first example you had is totally correct. One is stronger than the other.
The deflects are pretty weak, what made them strong before was how easy they were to pull off.

^

I also feel that with deflect not being this great of a boon for assassins, it is also quite unfair to give them a weakened defense with the reflex guard. I'd like to see deflect be implemented in a way that replaces parry, and is objectively stronger than parry, to also justify having their defense gimped.

[Aarpian]

^

I also feel that with deflect not being this great of a boon for assassins, it is also quite unfair to give them a weakened defense with the reflex guard. I'd like to see deflect be implemented in a way that replaces parry, and is objectively stronger than parry, to also justify having their defense gimped.

I think the reflex guard isn't really an issue at all. It's very rare that somebody attacks from the direction you are blocking in anyway, so essentially everybody has a reflex guard. The actual defence nerf that assassins have is their reduced HP
Don't forget that assassins have very powerful dodges, plus the ability to punish with dodge attack, turning many scenarios that are neutral for attacker+defender (like dodging a shoulder charge) into an advantage for the defender (being able to dodge-attack to punish and avoid the guardbreak).
While trying to respect the NDA; one scenario where assassin dodges were outright superior was against the valkyrie.

I'm also not against them buffing deflect to compensate for the loss of parry.

[CaptainPwnet]

It would be kind of cool if assassins only had deflect instead of parry. But I think it might be hard to balance this out properly.

As it is right now parries provide you defense against external attackers as you get the all block state when you do it. You can also parry external attackers, and parries do stamina damage for potential knockdowns and knockdown all the time in revenge.

On the flipside if you deflect you are still vulnerable to external attackers. I'm not sure but I don't think you can deflect external attackers(will need to test in upcoming beta), deflect offers no additional reward like the stamina damage of parry and has no specific revenge mode benefits.

So I think it would be quite difficult to get deflects on a good enough level to compensate for the lack of parries while still keeping their own unique feel and flavor. But as it is right now yeah deflect is pretty much pointless when you have parries. Even without thinking about parries deflects are largely not worth it as assassin side dodge attacks are so good and provide the same reward as deflect.