Any one else get the sense that there are too many variables for the Dev team to balance out in game currently.
In 1.3 it was way worse. The ship had completely flipped over, 1.4 righted the ship in some ways.
I'm usually dead set against simplifying games- I love the Arma series where combat can become really in depth and complicated (bullet drop, range finding, taking meds to steady aim, ect)
Between Gear Set bonuses, He gear Talents,Named Gear Talents, Weapon Talents, Gear RNG variations, Different stat options on gear (% elite dmg vs crit dmg ect..),
Base skills(fist aid for example), Skill add-ons(booster shot first aid), Talents (one is none ect..), Main stat (FA,STAM,ELECT) scaling, minor stat (Skill Power, ect..) scaling.
On top of all that they have to balance PVE vs PVP- because the same gear is used in both
On top of all that every time they come out with a new Game mode all of the above has to be taken in to account as well.
it's no wonder every update/DLC there is a new Meta that out shines most everything else.
It's no wonder when people bring up game balance issues the response is " The team feels its fine for now". Why would you even want to look at the complex math to figure out and actually balance anything (Judging by how bad the DPS calculation is in this game I'm not sure I would trust the numbers even if they did sit down and try to figure it all out)
1.5 is more balanced than 1.3 by a lot but it is nowhere near where it should be.
enemies WT5--- too easy (combination of a bunch of system balance- player gun dmg + player gear dmg/dmg mitigation vs enemy dmg and healt/armor
guns--- some guns are just un usable in any situation- Main ones being burst fire weapons
gear--- some sets just flat out are not as good, How can you compare Fire Crest to Alpha Bridge, you just can't it is better than it was but not but not by nearly enough.
These are just some examples, but pretty much any of the balancing issues that get brought up can be boiled down to the fact that there are way to many variables at the moment.
and the people looking at balancing either don't have enough time/resources to go into it all or the calculations they are looking at are not sound to begin with.
You guys need to be making some of this stuff easier on yourself, would result in better balancing for the player experience (get rid of loot stat RNG range, or weapon talents, or some combination to make it more simple to focus on balancing)
At the rate they add stuff the gear/talents/weapons that don't make any sense just keep stacking up, people keep posting threads about what new weapons ect... are going to be added when there are some in the game that no one uses, a decent amount of named weapons fall into this catagory as well.
I don't feel like there are too many to balance, I think there are a few core problems the game faces right now:
- Uncomplicated: whoever made this talent should be kicked in the nuts, we should have learned from launch that any talent with a flat DPS % buff becomes mandatory, and so has the FAMAS / AB build become mandatory (at least for maximum effectiveness, obviously other stuff works, I actually have way more fun running deadeye). Either tweak this so it can only apply to weapons named "FAMAS" or just change it outright, IMO.
- Damage mitigation: Because firearms scales like crap and firearms / skill builds really aren't practical, everyone stacks stamina and only cares about armor. We all end up so tanky endgame that you barely take cover to reload and generally just stroll around blasting stuff with your OP LVOA-C thanks to the aforementioned uncomplicated. Change armor to only apply while in cover, IMO.
- Ineffective weapons: burst weapons especially need some love, but I think outside of those it's not like there are any I just never see used. Maybe burst weapons need the stability cranked way up or need less delay between bursts so that frantic clicking can shoot bursts faster, I'm not sure. Burst weapons IRL are great so I'd hate to see them get removed.
Whats unbalanced currently other than FAMAS/ALPHA?
Honestly, more than fingers on 1 hand? Tell me because i bet i can counter you.
I play the DZ all the time and NOTHING bothers me at 142k toughness. I know the above is killing diversity atm but at the same time many builds are surfacing after everyone stops posting youtube videos and people start experimenting and getting creative instead of copying builds.
Name them...
Fire Crest is a tad weak IMO at the moment, Alpha aside the flame status effect on enemies doesn't last long enough to get the 15% dmg but for a split second hear or there. Even using an the Urban MDR to add an extra 10% dmg to static on top of the 15% from fire crest was not effective.
Lone Star- still don't see a huge benefit to wearing this and have never seen any one use it
Reclaimers arguably since the nerf, only seen 1 person running that since 1.5- I think its possibly not as bad as some people would make it out to be.
Basically any skill build is not needed due to main stat scaling except for maybe in a couple Incursion situations.
I have seen 0 people running shotties in 1.5, messed around with a few in a 2 or 4 different sets and it seems lack luster compared to assault rifles in almost every situtation. The double barrel 2 shot shotties in general are garbage, along with most of the named weapons except maybe, the phakan and a select few others.
assault rifles- basically G36, Lvoa-c, enhanced acr seem better over all to anything else (excluding the Famas, hate this gun except the uncomplicated talent obviously makes AB OP)
LMGs on the other hand seem fairly balanced.
Urban MDR IMO is not good
I wasn't just talking weapons however, I was talking about balancing game difficulty as well, at the moment 90% of the PVE content can be done half asleep .
This and the fact that a ton of people are still posting about the game being to difficult leads me to think it would be easier to balance and easier for other people to put a decent set together.
The PVE in this game is super easy at the moment, so easy its not challenging and makes me not want to play it, Yet people still post about this being to hard or that being to hard.
I don't get it.
I would rather they simplify some of what I posted above instead of making more PVE content that is mind numbing and not challenging, and potentially put in some type of progression based incursions/raids witch takes a lot of control on stats/bonuses to accomplish.
Thanks for your thoughts. There are a lot of things to consider, but that comes with such a vast and detailed game.
We've definitely heard the feedback about some of the things you mention like Burst weapons, the armor stat, and gear set balancing.
If you do have any ideas of how you would handle this, we are keen to hear about them!
How would you improve the balancing? Are there any variables you think are worth removing and why?
/gabelikes
The reason you don't see many different builds is because most people don't look past the first primary stat page and copy youtube builds. The RPG for dummies guide to git gud.
However, spend enough time in the DZ and you'll notice that Strikers Shotguns are being experimented with/developed. I've seen Frontline Shield builds, Predator Shield builds, FireCrest Shield builds. 4x Final Measure + Shortbow Kneepads. Alpha Bridge Snipers. Tactician Seekers. ReclaimerTac medics, etc etc all viable when team synergy is involved and some skill.
Problem is all anyone sees are the individual builds, the boring straight forward linear thinking troglodyte builds of alpha famas and since launch, stacking firearms and armour. But just bexause they're simple doesn't mean other builds are broken or unviable... You gotta build it right and then you gotta learn how to play it.
If PVP ARENA was a thing, you'd see a huge difference in build diversity because the real variables are respawns, AI and battles of attrition that reside in the environment... The DZ. Most people get ganked and throw their build away, make mistakes playing but blame the build not the user.
Trust me, the game needs work no doubt... But it ain't broken.
It works well enough in PvE IMHO. Enemies aren't lit on fire instantly, which is realistic; they have to be exposed to the flame for several seconds before they're actually lit on fire. The "on fire" status effect itself, which can be seen as an icon above the enemies heads, then lasts for about two to three seconds which I suppose is a bit on the short side. Clearly there is also some mechanism operating behind the scenes which prevents enemies from having the "on fire" status effect applied again too soon. The problem with this is that by the time this timer runs out, odds are you'll have already killed them all this making it rather pointless.Originally Posted by AOD_sinister Go to original post
On the bright side, enemies will still take damage from the turret, provided they're dumb enough to just stand there like an idiot for you and you've placed your turret in a some what intelligent spot. If a named enemy can destroy your turret by meleeing it, you've put it in the wrong place lol. Speaking from experience, enemies die rather quickly with this build, especially if you have a good setup (i.e. a decent electronics score along with various skill boosting talents, like those on the Caduceus for example).
If I had to make a suggestion, it would be to increase (slightly) how long enemies can have the on fire status effect applied. One or two seconds longer should do. It might also be worth considering how many enemies have the effect applied to them at the same time and use that as a modifier for how long the status effect will last. Figure out a way to reward the player for playing this build intelligently.
The only problem I forsee, however, is the whole PvE versus PvP balancing issue this game suffers from. What works for one seldom works for the other and even though it's entirely possible to set things up so that certain skills work differently depending on whether the player is in a PvE or PvP area (the recent changes to armor being one example), actually doing so would require more time and effort from the devs, which they probably don't have considering the sheer number of bugs that currently need fixing, as well as the fact The Last Stand DLC is still a work in progress.
I am really liking where the PVP is right now. What I am hoping that they do not add any more gear sets. We already have 9 named sets plus gold? I feel like that is getting out of control, as currently I feel like there are about 2-3 too many.
I must say that Up until 1.5 I never felt confident in a 1v1 situation, and I would always run as a tanktician with healing. However, now that the shot guns are gone, I am having fun in 1v1s, and actually winning some of them.
The one change I would make would be to make all offensive skills have a much longer cool down. I like gunfire. I dont like to lose a battle because I was hit with a shock turret.
I'm at work so my stats will probably be a little off, correct me if i'm wrong.
let's say some one doesn't know what they are doing and uses gear with the following,
let's assume also that the main stats are 5k FA, 6k Stam, 2.5k electronics (roughly)
(worst case gearing scenario)
Example A
chest:
Major-5k health
27% xp increase
Mask:
Major-5K health
10% exotic damage resilience
Backpack:
Major-7% skill haste
all resistences for minor
Gloves:
major-pistol dmg
major-shotgun dmg
major-sniper dmg
Kneepads:
major- 4% prot from elites
minor- resistances
Holster:
major-pistol damage
This person effectively got 10k extra health, resistances,4% prot from elites, 27% xp gain,7% exotic dmg, 7% skill haste, extra pistol dmgx2, and sniper/shotgun dmg (washed down dmg because you can only shoot one gun at a time- basically 2 of the 3 are not being used at any given time from the glove stats)
VS
example B
Chest:
major- armor 1150
minor- 50% ammo capacity
Mask:
major- 9% elite dmg or 4% crit chance(or SP for electronics build or balance)
minor-8% enemy armor dmg
Backpack:
major-armor 900 (or SP for electronics build/ balancing main stats)
minor-50% ammo
Gloves:
major- +dmg to weapon of choice
major-6% crit chance
major- 16% crit dmg or 9% dmg to elites(depending on pvp or pve focus)
kneepads:
major- armor 1150
minor-11% enemy armor dmg + resistances
Holster:
major-armor 600
This player has +3,800 armor, 100% ammo capacity, 19% enemy armor dmg, and either [18% damage to elites (+6% crit chance from gloves)] or [10% crit chance with 16% crit dmg from gloves]
and all of the glove bonuses are being used on the primary weapon of choice and are all active at the same time
so the range of stats just on the gear goes from above to
10k extra health, resistances,4% prot from elites, 27% xp gain,7% exotic dmg, 7% skill haste, extra pistol dmgx2, and sniper/shotgun dmg (washed down dmg because you can only shoot one gun at a time- basically 2 of the 3 are not being used at any given time from the glove stats)
I personally don't know or have the time to figure out what the % difference is in how much better example B is over A but it is HUGE!!!
This is just from gear- throw gear sets into the mix, (not going to use Alpha Bridge because it is OP) at the moment
example A- decides to use lone star with the stat from example A above-
+100% ammo(now he/she has the same ammo as example B) +8% lmg/shotty dmg(decent base dmg increase) + when holstering ammo is instantly refilled (decent with shotties, LMGs i feel don't really benefit that much from this)
example B- Strikers
+20% stability (helps with getting the 4set easier/faster) + 10% enemy armor (on top of the 19% from gear stats=29%) + up to 100% extra dmg for not missing (have to work for it but on easy content this really isn't needed especially if you have the stats on gear from example B,,,, on harder content shoot at a heavy and you have your 100% fairly quickly/easily)
The gap between Example A (worst case stat scenario) and Example B(best case for fire arms build) is about the size of the grand canyon
Throw gun stats/talents into the mix and it widens
Obviously if you know what your doing you wouldn't set your build up like example A- and yes I know in example B some people would take Skill Power, or Health on Kill, or Exotic resistance or what ever depending on the build you are making.
What I'm saying is how will you ever be able to have any finely tuned content like Raids when the Stat range can be swung so far to either side.
Like I'v said in another post, I'v had more than one person ask me to Team Viewer into their computer and set their builds up for them------seriously WTF
This to me is why people complain the DZ is to hard, Shot gunners are still too hard, and various other complaints,
While some people (myself included) think the game is too easy, Whats the stat on survival extraction like 13% success rate yet I can do it 19 times out of 22 or something (1 death from server/input lag, 1 death from not knowing Hunters could hack a turret, and 1 because I did something really stupid)
I'm not trying to say I'm a really good player, I don't really think I am.
I think people want to just jump into the game and play and the stat ranges are so wide and very so much people don't know what to do and get destroyed. And I personally don't want the content to get any easier than it is right now but every other day I jump on the forms some one is posting it's to hard this or to hard that.
I for one would get rid of DMG to elites, and tune elites to take the same damage based off of Crit DMG/Crit chance from gear------would get rid of 1 problem with new players going into the DZ with dmg to elites on
or at least have something explaining to new players that hey guess what dmg to elites damage aint gonna do you any good in PVP.
Also 10K health from gear I would just get rid of as well, (yes maybe you would take it in a certain PVP situation on the mask but 90% of people are running the crit chance or SP anyway)
and 5K health vs 1150ish armor is laughable
Ill try to put some more effort into this when I get home, need to do some IT stuff now lol
PS- I used middle of the road stat rolls for most everything in both scenerios- the gap would have been wider if I had used worst possible stat rolls on example A and best possible rolls on example B
Ok, lemmie put it this way. In 1.3 mobs didn't scale to player numbers.
... If that's difficult to balance and wasn't sorted in beta then honestly, I dunno what to say.
Overall though, yes, there's a lot to balance and it's easier said then done. But some things that need balancing shouldn't have to be balanced after release. Which is why people complain about unbalanced things a lot. Because some mistakes shouldn't have been made to begin with.
balancing DZ is probably going to be a nightmare (PVP always is). Right now it's CoD with players in your face instead of cover being used. The issue isn't necessarily damage output and tanking (those do need working on though), it's things like needing to pin people down. If someone sprays a LMG my way when I'm in cover then I want the screen to shake and be torn to shreds if I'm out in the open. Like in some of Ubisofts past game. Now admittedly, I didn't enjoy Rainbow Six multiplayer as much as I could have (the past ones before Siege), but that was due to the magical gadgets that let you see through walls being spammed. Things like screen shaking with LMGs were actually quite good and fun and made for nice gameplay. Something we can apply here.