Want cover based shooter? Reduce armour. | Forums

[Veldaz]

Afterwards, tone down the gun handling a bit for consoles: STOP TRYING TO MAKE GUN MECHANICS BETWEEN CONSOLE AND PC EQUAL FFS!!

And this last quote is not directed solely at Massive, so many devs are guilty of this, STOP IT, you're dumbing down any extra potential skill ceiling on PC with this and you're hindering the experience of console players as well as if you're expecting them to perform on par with a mouse/keyboard.

While I can't stand gamepads myself, with this game it's already a thing. If you just go "improve keyboard/mouse controls, dump on gamepads" then you're basically saying they're not entitled to enjoy the game anymore. Therefor any solutions with THIS game need to be different then "Make mouse and keyboard more effective then gamepads". It's not just a console issue either. Some PC gamers do prefer gamepads even with FPS.

And I say this as someone that can't stand gamepads and consoles myself. But the fact of the matter is that with this existing game it's trying to be fair to both controls. Which it manages to do. The real problem is that it's really difficult to come up with ideas in this area that are fair on gamepads as well. Had this been a game focused on keyboard and mouse controls then I would very much agree with you. However, since this game was going to be console exclusive from the start then I say we're lucky to even have this game on PC to begin with.

This means we ultimately need to think of ways of making things work beyond simple player controls. To have things like less armor to make us move more. To have a reason to pin down enemies instead of instantly killing them. Because if we're going to discuss how to make controls fair for keyboard and mouse and gamepads then we'll be all here all day and probably have the thread turn into a PC VS console flame war. I would rather have constructive conversation about other ideas as to how to better use cover more often then do that myself. Or at least save it for another thread. Because that's a whole conversation in and of itself.

[Corrupt.be]

But the fact of the matter is that with this existing game it's trying to be fair to both controls.

It's not succeeding. If you look at a lot of complaints of people saying the game is to hard (in PvE), they're often console players or people using controllers. It's not my intention to bash on them, I tried controllers myself from time to time in some shooters (I used to play games on Playstation as well when I was younger), it's exactly because of this I don't think it's currently balanced at all.

A really good PC player has the potential to pretty much get double the damage output of the average console player, simply because you're landing a metric ton of headshots. Looking at console footage, I see people clearly struggling with the recoil, whereas a good PC player is having an easy time handling the guns.

If we look at both extremes and maximum potential, I'd say it's impossible to balance it without giving console players easier to handle guns.

Also, the first half of my post, I do think in order to get more cover based gameplay, we need to look at all ways to improve it and being able to quickly alternate between a defensive or offensive action is part of this (hence why I propose the movement changes).

I'm not pulling these ideas out of my ***, I'm getting older and I play The Division to chill nowadays, but prior to this I played 15 years worth of shooters (if not more), with 10 years of that in a competitive environment (lans, etc).

I also want to look at ways to improve this without directly affecting stats. Maybe we can do stats afterwards to fine tune, but first and foremost we should look at other options.

[dukefx32]

"Hey, Massive, I made a tanky character by taking nothing but armor despite having so many other options available. Reduce armor because I'm a tank and a tank is supposed to be squishy!" Does the OP even realize how stupid they sound?

[Veldaz]

@Corrupt_be: Cool. Glad we're on the same page.

"Hey, Massive, I made a tanky character by taking nothing but armor despite having so many other options available. Reduce armor because I'm a tank and a tank is supposed to be squishy!" Does the OP even realize how stupid they sound?

One problem with that logic. It's a lot like going "Hey, there's booze in the store and I'm an alcoholic". Which happens with every shop I come across. Which probably doesn't help with people trying not to drink yet wanting too. I don't drink myself but I imagine it must be hell for those that do.

In other words the temptation to be tanky is always there. It's the herb that gets turned into weed. If people can do it, they will. The OP also said they're pretty much instant killing everything already as well. And that's what plenty of other tanks are also doing. So there's no trade off. Removing the "other options" argument. There's no reason for them to play differently because the whole game centers around taking damage and giving it out.

[Corrupt.be]

The issue isn't being a tank, the issue is being able to be a tank and still output metric tons of DPS. Same way the tanktician existed in 1.3: A tactician isn't an issue, a tactician (or SP build) that has metric tons of toughness at the same time is.

[Veldaz]

The issue isn't being a tank, the issue is being able to be a tank and still output metric tons of DPS.

Exactly. As a result we don't have other options then to tank. Because why not if we can still kill everything easily anyway?

[Corrupt.be]

On a sidenote, for The Division 2, I hope they somehow incorporate this better and even change the model its appearance based on some values. Per example, the more someone invests in thoughness, bigger he should look (more "hulkish" basically, a bit like how the NPC's have clearly defined heavy's).

It's something so blatantly simple (well not to implement probably), but it would drastically affect choices people make in PvP.

[SKORPIQN]

"Hey, Massive, I made a tanky character by taking nothing but armor despite having so many other options available. Reduce armor because I'm a tank and a tank is supposed to be squishy!" Does the OP even realize how stupid they sound?

Tanks are still viable with low armour, its called the ballistic shield and electronics.

[Veldaz]

Tanks are still viable with low armour, its called the ballistic shield and electronics.

We weren't talking about abilities. We were talking about players taking so many hits in the first place, making it practically pointless to take those abilities anyway. The abilities doesn't make someone tanky since they have cooldowns (meaning they can't tank on cooldown. Can EASILY happen in underground with a debuff. has happened to me more then once there actually. With a SINGLE partner). They can however be abilities that apply to a tanky player.

I always take shield and placing cover though. But that's just me and I like to have a last resort for when enemies close in.

[SKORPIQN]

We weren't talking about abilities. We were talking about players taking so many hits in the first place, making it practically pointless to take those abilities anyway. The abilities doesn't make someone tanky since they have cooldowns. THey can however be abilities that apply to a tanky player.

I also take shield and placing cover though. But that's just me and I like to have a last resort for when enemies close in.

No i agree, im just saying to those concerned about tank builds which are important to RPS. Low armour doesnt mean you can't still tank, it means that now all you mostly do is tank and it requires skill in reguards to positioning when we talk about tactics like movement and taking cover... You ARE cover... You could walk right up on enemy behind cover with frontline and a UMP with ambusher getting extra damage on them... I mean the possibilities are endless.