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[whovie]

what If the beta consists of all three vanguards, Assassins, and heavies? While your hybrids are the final thing that you work with for yourself when the game comes out.

This is what I expect the beta to be. We'll get the Vanguard and Assassins. But I bet we'll only get one of the other two classes and they'll make us wait for the last class at launch. Like you I'm just a starving dog waiting for the next bone of information or Ramsey Bolton.

[Dez_troi_aR]

This is what I expect the beta to be. We'll get the Vanguard and Assassins. But I bet we'll only get one of the other two classes and they'll make us wait for the last class at launch. Like you I'm just a starving dog waiting for the next bone of information or Ramsey Bolton.

We already got a heavy, the conqueror.
Besides, isn't balancing the classes one of the main points of having beta-tests?


.... U know what ? I don't give a sh***. Just let me play the damn beta. I'd be happy with just playing warden mirror matches 3days straight

[MisterWillow]

Besides, isn't balancing the classes one of the main points of having beta-tests?

^THIS^

It would be inconceivable to me that the remaining six heroes not be included in the beta, for the simple reason that they need feedback on them for balancing purposes. If one (or more) of the others has massive issues in terms of being overpowered/underpowered and they save them for release, it does nothing but lay the ground for a mountain of complaints. There's absolutely no reason for this to happen, especially when it's completely avoidable.

[magicyak99]

^THIS^

It would be inconceivable to me that the remaining six heroes not be included in the beta, for the simple reason that they need feedback on them for balancing purposes. If one (or more) of the others has massive issues in terms of being overpowered/underpowered and they save them for release, it does nothing but lay the ground for a mountain of complaints. There's absolutely no reason for this to happen, especially when it's completely avoidable.

Yeah, I agree with that statement, and increasingly hope that this is the case for the beta.

[coma987]

Guys, I just found out something through twitter.

For honor is on PSX with a demo, no info about it or any gameplay for now. I'm waiting so I'm gonna let everyone know if anything shows up. Come to HoH as I'll be posting things there first if I do find anything.

[MisterWillow]

Well this is questionable, because the Devs told us many times, that they also play the game against each other all the time with all the classes since longer time ... how tactless to tell us that ^^

The point is, that they see it on their own, if the balance isn't proper, so they don't need us for this.

Even if they are internally able to recognise changes that need to be made, it's still a limited perspective that might not catch everything.

Another issue with this is that if they've been playing for so long, and as such are well versed in all the various mechanical nuances of the characters, they might not notice (or at least not mind) the existence of a genuinely overpowered class/move/stat/feat because they're so skilled that they've developed an advanced method of dealing with it that half the people that play the game will not ever figure out. That could lead to people dropping the game after a couple of days, because everyone's using <insert OP thing> and people are either frustrated by being destroyed or tired of seeing the same thing over and over again.

Even if somebody complains now like "But the Orochi is OP" ... maybe he is just OP against the current 5 classes (excluding the Conquerer) ��

At the risk of saying something I'm not supposed to, the Orochi went through at least three balance changes throughout the various alphas. That might have happened if it was only the devs testing internally, but the likelihood is probably pretty low, for the reason stated above---they're so good they are able to compensate for the overpowered nature of the class.

I believe, that in For Honor there is a counter class schema, and we don't know which class has a(n) dis/advantage against which class.
Especially when the hybrids come in ...

I've seen this brought up before and I maintain that this sort of design decision would undermine Duel mode. In order for that mode to be viable at all, every character would need to be able to stand toe to toe with anyone else. Maybe one character or class would have a slight advantage in one area---like Assassins would have a speed advantage over Heavies---but to have a straight counter-class would break at least that mode, because if say, the counter for Orochi were the Conqueror, and the two encountered one another in Duel, there'd be almost no point in the Orochi fighting at all, since the superior block of the Conq would negate just about anything the Orochi could do---especially with their ability to block>heavy>shield bash, which can literally render an Orochi unresponsive.

It's a delicate processes to be sure, but it's very important for everyone to be as close to perfectly balanced as possible, and the easiest way to do that is to allow as many people as possible to play them and look for those sorts of flaws.

[MisterWillow]

This is **** in all the terms of respect ^^
Even if you know all the classes, you feel an technically disadvantage if your oponent counters and interruupts you all the time, just because he is fast and you are slow.
Honestly if this people drop the game for this reason they woulnd't play the game long either way ...

Not my point. I mean that they have probably developed ways of mitigating a broken aspect of a class, simply because they're constantly experiencing it during testing. Something that they've spent months with might not feel broken to them, because they are intimately familiar with each characters' capabilities (especially if they're maining one character or another), so they know exactly how much time it takes for any given characters' weapon to swing (meaning they can anticipate an imbalance and compensate for it, like how a good driver can compensate for a muscle car's terrible handling, for example) but put in the hands of new players, and the balance flaws become very apparent very quickly.

Remember that the Alpha was about 2 1/2 months ago ... and the whole time before also many other things beside the Heroes have been developed.

Again, at the risk of saying something I shouldn't, there have been multiple alphas over the past few months. Not all of them were public.

We don't know for how long the Devs had all the classes to test them on their own, but now it really seems like they are just "polishing" the game which includes Heroes and Balance and maybe other minor other stuff (minor in data size)

It doesn't matter how long they've had them, for the reason stated above. An egregious imbalance to the average player could only seem to be a minor inconvenience for them. That's why letting players test the others is absolutely necessary before release.

Btw. do you have a source, that the Orochi was balanced 3 times and how drastically?
It would just interest me on my own.

Me. I experienced it (again, at the risk of saying something I shouldn't). Won't say any more than that.

Yes it would be a disadvantage of course but in this case we would have to become skilled and develope an advanced method of dealing with all the counter classes ^^
Honestly MasterWillow I am really thinking you would prefere if everybody just played a Warden (or whatever) to have 100% technical balance

Not at all. Advantages and disadvantages are going to exist, but they shouldn't be to the degree that one character can counter another. The speed of one character shouldn't be so quick that another literally can't keep up. The damage of one character shouldn't be able to kill another in two or three hits.

There can obviously be variations---like the Orochi is obviously faster and more agile than Conqueror, but Conqueror can deal more damage and has superior defense---but no aspect of one character should ever render another character unviable in Duel. To do so undermines the purpose of the entire mode.

I think you got me a bit wrong ... I would jump to the roof of my room if I get an Beta-Key, but I really doubt, that they need us in this stage of game devepoment to balance their 12 "products".
Even I would like if they need us that much, because that would mean an higher chance of having all 12 classes in the Beta

Again, the caveat of risk, but changes have already been made to the existing classes, based on player feedback. It would be reasonable to presume the other six would need adjustments.

[Dez_troi_aR]

Even if you know all the classes, you feel an technically disadvantage if your oponent counters and interruupts you all the time, just because he is fast and you are slow.
Honestly if this people drop the game for this reason they woulnd't play the game long either way ...
Yes it would be a disadvantage of course but in this case we would have to become skilled and develope an advanced method of dealing with all the counter classes ^^
Honestly MasterWillow I am really thinking you would prefere if everybody just played a Warden (or whatever) to have 100% technical balance

Wait a scond, first you say there is a rock-paper-scissors thing and then you say the game is still competitive because you can learn to deal with your hardcounter?
Thats not how any of this works. That principle makes sense in an RTS, where you have lots of different options, or maybe in a shooter, where you have a bunch of different weapons.
But isn't it obvious how broken a fighting-game or a MOBA would become, were you are stuck with your choice, if some characters are just made to win over others ?

If you'd win a starcraft match against an opponent who does the counterstrategy to what you are doing, you played vs someone who is not only "not as good" as you but "three-year-old-brother-took-over-the-keyboard-while-the-enemy-player-was-taking-a-piss"-level of bad. Your not supposed to win vs an hardcounter, you are supposed to not get yourself into a situation where you are hardcountered.

If you hop into a duel and you get matched with the class that hardcounters you what are you going to do ? "Play really really good" ? What if you're defending a point in a dominion and your hardcounter engages you? Give up the point and slay some minions Oo ? The teams aren't composed in any way, there could be teams who have massive disadvantages and are sloughtered for 10minutes straight.

I know willow said it all but i am having a hard time to see why you keep on insisting on your point