The Necessary Orochi Diatribe; An Orochi without risk. | Forums

[Mykaterasu]

"Any good Orochi will cancel a Storm rush over and over. The opponent cannot actually attack, and the Orochi cannot get punished." (spelling, grammar, and omission edits to make it easier to read). This is a fallacy. The truth is that a good opponent will abuse this fake-out play-style with dash punishes (Warden comment omitted for irrelevance since you started talking about blocking again for some reason... which meant you were repeating yourself from a previous post).

This "punish" is only true for point-blanc Storm Rushes. As explained in the post, at the tip of the footsie range where it is most optimal to play for every class (possible exception goes to Raider), there is no attack that reaches far enough to punish Storm Rush consistently, if ever. Even if (or when) an Orochi gets in that close, it'd be to do an offensive option like chain or tech instead of whiff punishing. Nobody worth their salt tries to whiff punish/bait at point-blanc, that makes no sense in every existing fighting game and makes no sense in For Honor either. As I mentioned in a different comment string, you can't completely claim to have an out to a move when the instances in which you saw them used where incorrect.

[MNSUAngel]

This "punish" is only true for point-blanc Storm Rushes. As explained in the post, at the tip of the footsie range where it is most optimal to play for every class (possible exception goes to Raider), there is no attack that reaches far enough to punish Storm Rush consistently, if ever. Even if (or when) an Orochi gets in that close, it'd be to do an offensive option like chain or tech instead of whiff punishing. Nobody worth their salt tries to whiff punish/bait at point-blanc, that makes no sense in every existing fighting game and makes no sense in For Honor either. As I mentioned in a different comment string, you can't completely claim to have an out to a move when the instances in which you saw them used where incorrect.

I disagree. Based on the situation that occurs, there are always several forms of punishment. If you are fighting an Orochi and they enter the stance and immediately use SR, block it and punish. If they hold it, DO NOT dash forward, merely move towards them, and if they use SR, block and punish. If they continue to hold, do not be baited into attacking, wait until you are close enough for a light attack (while they are in SR's stance) and punish. SR is not faster from stance than an in-range light attack.

These are the punishes I am talking about. I understand that for some people, blocking is hard and they never really took the time to learn, but for the couple of people that I played against in the Alpha that did, it was totally different.


_______________________________________
User: MNSUAngel
Hours Played: Between 20-30 hrs.
Duel Footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay4mtvtvIcc

[Mykaterasu]

I disagree. Based on the situation that occurs, there are always several forms of punishment. If you are fighting an Orochi and they enter the stance and immediately use SR, block it and punish. If they hold it, DO NOT dash forward, merely move towards them, and if they use SR, block and punish. If they continue to hold, do not be baited into attacking, wait until you are close enough for a light attack (while they are in SR's stance) and punish. SR is not faster from stance than an in-range light attack.

These are the punishes I am talking about. I understand that for some people, blocking is hard and they never really took the time to learn, but for the couple of people that I played against in the Alpha that did, it was totally different.]

Lots of problems here.

First off, you literally repeated one my original post's points. You honestly think that I forgot what I wrote? I did write that walking forward is the only viable response against storm rush, and I am allowed to acknowledge that my own point is right, but you really have the wrong spin on what is happening here since you somehow thought that was OK. You glossed over the whole point so let's just take this from the top.

Your way of dealing with the Orochi is to wait for her to make a mistake and let SR go on its own when the opponent is in the neutral game, not attacking, just blocking. Do you honestly believe that you can beat good players by waiting for them to make a mistake? Nobody in their right mind let's SR go raw, and having a big focus on blocking in your gameplan it leaves you open for the dash cancel > guardbreak. To be honest, I don't think you've even considered that the Orochi can cancel storm rush at all, it doesn't seem to be anywhere in your posts. Second, the fact that you think it's OK that the Orochi's opponent should completely fear pressing any button ever is ludicrous. What you just stated was my post, but you seem to think it's acceptable. A duel in which you are pretty much unable to attack at all due to the fear of a whiff punish is immediately one sided in the Orochi's favour. The non-Orochi player can't risk attacking, but you just skimmed over it like it was fine. SR isn't unbeatable, but any attempt to attack the Orochi in the neutral game will be whiff punished, whereas every other class has to block, unless they read in advance. Nobody cares about getting hit by SR raw. I can't believe you don't get this.

You kinda redefined Punish on its 3rd use a little too, since you're so adamant that moving forward and not attacking until you've gained the ground you've lost, then attacking is punishing, even when Storm Rush can be cancelled. You can't punish something that is inherently safe through a cancel method, which is why the glossary of fighting game terminology defines a punish as attacking when an opponent is recovering, not whenever they do something. Please understand this.

I am honestly convinced now that you have no idea what you are talking about because you seem to be repeating my post and using my point in an argument against my point, which makes absolutely no sense. If you want to reply, please read the original post again before doing so. Also, at the end of your post did you really just condescend everyone who played the Alpha by saying that none of them can block? Really?

[Dark-Thomy]

I'd like to add something that (I believe) wasn't mentioned before..

I also find the timing to start a storm rush very sweet/wide.
Meaning by that, you can back dodge, actually analyze what's going on and take a coffee and THEN press the heavy attack to still make a quick (without any stance wind-up) storm rush.

[MNSUAngel]

Lots of problems here.

First off, you literally repeated one my original post's points. You honestly think that I forgot what I wrote? I did write that walking forward is the only viable response against storm rush, and I am allowed to acknowledge that my own point is right, but you really have the wrong spin on what is happening here since you somehow thought that was OK. You glossed over the whole point so let's just take this from the top.

Your way of dealing with the Orochi is to wait for her to make a mistake and let SR go on its own when the opponent is in the neutral game, not attacking, just blocking. Do you honestly believe that you can beat good players by waiting for them to make a mistake? Nobody in their right mind let's SR go raw, and having a big focus on blocking in your gameplan it leaves you open for the dash cancel > guardbreak. To be honest, I don't think you've even considered that the Orochi can cancel storm rush at all, it doesn't seem to be anywhere in your posts. Second, the fact that you think it's OK that the Orochi's opponent should completely fear pressing any button ever is ludicrous. What you just stated was my post, but you seem to think it's acceptable. A duel in which you are pretty much unable to attack at all due to the fear of a whiff punish is immediately one sided in the Orochi's favour. The non-Orochi player can't risk attacking, but you just skimmed over it like it was fine. SR isn't unbeatable, but any attempt to attack the Orochi in the neutral game will be whiff punished, whereas every other class has to block, unless they read in advance. Nobody cares about getting hit by SR raw. I can't believe you don't get this.

You kinda redefined Punish on its 3rd use a little too, since you're so adamant that moving forward and not attacking until you've gained the ground you've lost, then attacking is punishing, even when Storm Rush can be cancelled. You can't punish something that is inherently safe through a cancel method, which is why the glossary of fighting game terminology defines a punish as attacking when an opponent is recovering, not whenever they do something. Please understand this.

I am honestly convinced now that you have no idea what you are talking about because you seem to be repeating my post and using my point in an argument against my point, which makes absolutely no sense. If you want to reply, please read the original post again before doing so. Also, at the end of your post did you really just condescend everyone who played the Alpha by saying that none of them can block? Really?

Your post is inflamed and full of hostility. I think you need to cool your head on the topic. If you look at my previous posts with a cool head, you will realize I was not trying to antagonize you. I just disagree with some of your points.

It is okay to disagree with someone.

I do not think you forgot what you wrote. I do not believe you need to wait for an Orochi to make a mistake in order to beat them. If that is what you believe my post meant, that is incorrect. As far as SR's cancel, it is possible to back dash the GB. There is time to do this when SR is canceled, and I do not believe you answered that. This fact is the reason I did not talk about cancelling, because to me it does not seem relevant if the opponent has a viable solution to the proposed problem.

I disagree that an Orochi's opponent should or would always fear to attack. I think that it is key for a player to understand where the Orochi is strong. If you are patient, you will more often then not defeat an Orochi. When you lose, but you were patient, it is generally because you made a mistake. Having said that, the Orochi can punish mistakes more often because of speed, but again I would say that is a design decision, not a nerfable problem, and I think we could agree on that.

I did not know there was a glossary of fighting game terminology, but I will send Maximillion_Dood a message. If he sends a response, I will let you know first, but if he does not, that is okay, I hear he is pretty busy these days.

As far as your accusation regarding condescension, I apologize if that is how you read it. That was not my intent. However, your statement in this case is literally false, since in my post I said that I played against players who were able to block SR and the fights were completely different. I acknowledged that multiple players can block SR (I also never said the entire player-base can not block, but I understand, you are upset). Please do not spread false statements about community members, the last thing we need is for a community that is just starting to grow to become animalistic because of assumptions made during common disagreements.

I have no quarrel with you. I like your original post, and I did not enter this topic to derail it; I saw some things I disagreed with and provided commentary on them.

Peace friend,


__________________________________________________
User: MNSUAngel
Hours Played: Between 20-30 hrs.
Duel Footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay4mtvtvIcc

[Mykaterasu]

Your post is inflamed and full of hostility. I think you need to cool your head on the topic. If you look at my previous posts with a cool head, you will realize I was not trying to antagonize you. I just disagree with some of your points.

It is okay to disagree with someone.

I do not think you forgot what you wrote. I do not believe you need to wait for an Orochi to make a mistake in order to beat them. If that is what you believe my post meant, that is incorrect. As far as SR's cancel, it is possible to back dash the GB. There is time to do this when SR is canceled, and I do not believe you answered that. This fact is the reason I did not talk about cancelling, because to me it does not seem relevant if the opponent has a viable solution to the proposed problem.

I disagree that an Orochi's opponent should or would always fear to attack. I think that it is key for a player to understand where the Orochi is strong. If you are patient, you will more often then not defeat an Orochi. When you lose, but you were patient, it is generally because you made a mistake. Having said that, the Orochi can punish mistakes more often because of speed, but again I would say that is a design decision, not a nerfable problem, and I think we could agree on that.

I did not know there was a glossary of fighting game terminology, but I will send Maximillion_Dood a message. If he sends a response, I will let you know first, but if he does not, that is okay, I hear he is pretty busy these days.

As far as your accusation regarding condescension, I apologize if that is how you read it. That was not my intent. However, your statement in this case is literally false, since in my post I said that I played against players who were able to block SR and the fights were completely different. I acknowledged that multiple players can block SR (I also never said the entire player-base can not block, but I understand, you are upset). Please do not spread false statements about community members, the last thing we need is for a community that is just starting to grow to become animalistic because of assumptions made during common disagreements.

I have no quarrel with you. I like your original post, and I did not enter this topic to derail it; I saw some things I disagreed with and provided commentary on them.

Peace friend,

I'm a generally hostile writer when unfiltered, so when it comes to debates I do tend to become the Hulk of Poe's law. Glad we agree on that. I also disagree that the Orochi's opponent should fear attacking, which was the whole point of the post in the first place, so there's that, but that paragraph I'm happy with too.

Also Max usually doesn't reply anymore from what I remember, unless it's on stream, so just message Amaterasu Benny if you want something done.

Overall, I don't think we'll ever get ends to meet on this argument properly since everything seems to be a bit of a clown fiesta after it's spiralled this deep. I still want to stress that from the position you've advocated in all of this, it seems like you consider blocking Storm Rush raw to be the problem but I can't think of other ways to spin it or get something that will give me a happy conclusion without being too sassy or aggressive, so I'll call it quits. Perhaps a couple games when the Alpha comes back up will help explain and bring a couple of things to light about Storm Rush, so all this needs is time.

[MNSUAngel]

I'm a generally hostile writer when unfiltered, so when it comes to debates I do tend to become the Hulk of Poe's law. Glad we agree on that. I also disagree that the Orochi's opponent should fear attacking, which was the whole point of the post in the first place, so there's that, but that paragraph I'm happy with too.

Also Max usually doesn't reply anymore from what I remember, unless it's on stream, so just message Amaterasu Benny if you want something done.

Overall, I don't think we'll ever get ends to meet on this argument properly since everything seems to be a bit of a clown fiesta after it's spiralled this deep. I still want to stress that from the position you've advocated in all of this, it seems like you consider blocking Storm Rush raw to be the problem but I can't think of other ways to spin it or get something that will give me a happy conclusion without being too sassy or aggressive, so I'll call it quits. Perhaps a couple games when the Alpha comes back up will help explain and bring a couple of things to light about Storm Rush, so all this needs is time.

LOL. Sounds good. Although some news did come yesterday from For Honor about the closed alpha:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWvhaHAqu1Q (Closed Alpha Recap)

In this video SpaceElephant sits down with Stephane Cardin (Producer) to talk about the closed alpha. They talk about a lot of things, but mentioned briefly (towards the beginning) is a likely nerf that is coming to the Orochi: "The deflect mechanic is a bit OP." So we will have to see, but for now, it sounds like my beloved SR is staying how it is.


__________________________________________________
User: MNSUAngel
Hours Played: Between 20-30 hrs.
Duel Footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay4mtvtvIcc

[Dark-Thomy]

So, you were totally concerned about Storm rush....

That explains your position on the topic actually.

[MNSUAngel]

Yeah, I mean mostly I just disagreed with OP regarding SR.