The Necessary Orochi Diatribe; An Orochi without risk. | Forums

[Mykaterasu]

I've found storm rush pretty easy to counter with Kensei & Warden at least. As Kensei I can pretty easily back dash as soon as I see an orochi space back either with a normal dash or storm rush and they won't hit me when they return or fairly easily guard against it.

Then they aren't cancelling it correctly. This is an anecdote where you came out on top because the opposing Orochi made a mistake. A good Orochi doesn't try to hit you with Storm Rush raw. Also you lost ground when you back dashed away, so if the Orochi does cancel like a good Orochi should, you lost that trade. See?

The real question though is why its at all a problem when you can guard it pretty easily since it telegraphs for so long and if they go into lights, those also can be guarded? As for cancelling it into guardbreaks, its not that hard to counter-guard break that if you aren't going for the world's most poorly timed interrupt attack.

The real problem is that you can insert this after any aggressive play as Orochi. The problem isn't throwing it out raw. Any good Orochi wouldn't let storm rush go through with the attack in the neutral game, we'd just cancel it over and over. The problem lies in that when the Orochi makes you block a string, after the string is over you can't make an offensive action that is good enough to counter the inevitable Storm Rush after that. Your options as the opponent against an Orochi are reduced to just movement alone. Anyone who gets hit by storm rush raw deserves it and cancelling it into guard breaks wasn't mentioned in the post because it's fair and easy to deal with, as you said.

Whenever I played my Orochi against people who were experienced, Storm Rush was pretty easily countered when I wasn't using it strictly as a punish on poorly timed heavies or guardbreaks

I never said that Storm Rush was so good that it has no counters when you don't cancel it. You can escape any punishment by cancelling Storm Rush at its furthest range and so getting punished for not doing that is your fault. Like I said, flow-charting this move properly gives too much control so I can only assume by the way you're saying this that I think you mistook the idea behind Storm Rush, and you may not be using Storm Rush "properly". Sorry to call that into question, and I really don't want to get into a fight over who plays Orochi better, but by the way you've constructed this reply, that's how it looks like .

The only thing that allowed me to use it effectively in situations where my opponent wasn't completely unable to respond because of them making a mistake was the capacity for me to be variable with it and cancel out of it into other things and at that point it was mostly used to just get people off of their game and succeed in other attacks.

That's exactly the point. Storm Rush can be used in succession multiple times to bait and punish any offensive action in the game. If it's used incorrectly, just cancel it and restart the fight. It's too domineering, especially in the back and forth game.

I really don't like pointing and saying people didn't read the post, but I don't think you understood it fully. I never said that the actual attack of Storm Rush was the problem. The point behind the post was to highlight how bad it is to put a whiff punish and a retreat into the same move that is cancellable, that can whiff punish most, if not all attacks in the game. If you choose to reply, please take another read of the post before replying, as I think the post wasn't fully understood.

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Orochi is CAKE for Conqueror and both vikings... and warden. People just like to whine.

Funny, because I think of all classes as cake when I play Orochi. When opinions like this clash, I'm sure the skill level of the Orochi's you've faced come into question, especially since I've only seen 10% of Orochi players use their unique moves, of which most of those just spam them without thought. Of course, Storm Rush is so good that everything I do has to abuse it, so I may not be any better.

[Cliffle]

As for cancelling it into guardbreaks, its not that hard to counter-guard break that if you aren't going for the world's most poorly timed interrupt attack.

I wasn't saying cancelling into guardbreak is a problem or non-counterable attack. I was saying I mostly do storm rush>cancel>GB to mix things up since using storm rush as OP stated makes fights pretty trivial.

[ServiusOrtus]

Then they aren't cancelling it correctly. This is an anecdote where you came out on top because the opposing Orochi made a mistake. A good Orochi doesn't try to hit you with Storm Rush raw. Also you lost ground when you back dashed away, so if the Orochi does cancel like a good Orochi should, you lost that trade. See?

I only played Orochi for a few hours in the last couple days, so my understandings and skill at certain aspects of the class are most likely not as refined for sure. I did misread your OP a bit, I never got particularly great at cancelling my storm rushes, so I was unaware and misunderstood how much control a good player can have over the animation.

I am a bit confused as to how as a Kensei back dashing from a similarly backdashing orochi is necessarily a lost move. At best the orochi cancels and we both have backed or maybe he's gained some ground if he cancels later at which point I should pretty quickly be able to use a forward dash light to re-engage at the original starting position, which if I whif I can still guard I believe fast enough to counter whatever the Orochi does. I'm curious to know I guess how you'd play an advantage from that, since my experience fighting Orochis, I'll freely admit is probably mostly against bad to average orochis.

The real problem is that you can insert this after any aggressive play as Orochi. The problem isn't throwing it out raw. Any good Orochi wouldn't let storm rush go through with the attack in the neutral game, we'd just cancel it over and over. The problem lies in that when the Orochi makes you block a string, after the string is over you can't make an offensive action that is good enough to counter the inevitable Storm Rush after that. Your options as the opponent against an Orochi are reduced to just movement alone. Anyone who gets hit by storm rush raw deserves it and cancelling it into guard breaks wasn't mentioned in the post because it's fair and easy to deal with, as you said.

I never said that Storm Rush was so good that it has no counters when you don't cancel it. You can escape any punishment by cancelling Storm Rush at its furthest range and so getting punished for not doing that is your fault. Like I said, flow-charting this move properly gives too much control so I can only assume by the way you're saying this that I think you mistook the idea behind Storm Rush, and you may not be using Storm Rush "properly". Sorry to call that into question, and I really don't want to get into a fight over who plays Orochi better, but by the way you've constructed this reply, that's how it looks like .

That's exactly the point. Storm Rush can be used in succession multiple times to bait and punish any offensive action in the game. If it's used incorrectly, just cancel it and restart the fight. It's too domineering, especially in the back and forth game.

I really don't like pointing and saying people didn't read the post, but I don't think you understood it fully. I never said that the actual attack of Storm Rush was the problem. The point behind the post was to highlight how bad it is to put a whiff punish and a retreat into the same move that is cancellable, that can whiff punish most, if not all attacks in the game. If you choose to reply, please take another read of the post before replying, as I think the post wasn't fully understood.

I get that the good orochi play is to use Storm Rush as a punish or bait. I admit I did misread your original post and for whatever reason brain goofed on how it can be cancelled at any point in the animation. I think you're right and that with that level of control, while it can still be dealt with, it just leaves Orochis with that lack of risk on using it to bait.

I feel like it could be balanced if you can't cancel it after you hold and the hold can only last a max of 1 or 2 seconds, like the hold should be the last position for you to cancel the whole thing but should probably still be allowed to transition to a guardbreak at the end instead of an attack. At first thought I think that should be enough, since I feel like being able to hold it for some time is a interesting and not necessarily broken part of the move and the guardbreak I feel like as you said is a counterable but still useful transition in place of the damage.

I never played enough orochi's good enough at storm rush control to experiment with using feints to bait them into storm rushes and as I think about it I imagine it probably won't change much? I think at best it could bait them into prematurely canceling which could possibly be useful with a kensei where their forward dash light might be able to do something.

[Chaos_kid23]

Orochi is CAKE for Conqueror and both vikings... and warden. People just like to whine.

Your statement is only true if your playing someone who doesn't know how to use them.

I played mostly as Conqueror, and fighting a unskilled orochi was no problem, but fighting a skilled one always went like this. First, you can't attack them first, there are 3 ways they can hit you if you attack them which you can't stop (step back counter, side step counter, block counter). They do pretty good damage, so even as a conqueror, which is a tank like hero, you can't trade hits with them without usually dying first.

So you have two options, you can guard break them if they get close enough, or you have to wait for them to attack. If they attack and you block it, you then have to options, swing with a weak attack R1/RB or guard break them. If you choose to swing, they can dodge you after you block their attack, because they can dodge during their swing animation. So you will miss them every time they do that. If you choose to swing, and they swing again after you block their attack, you will beat them to the punch and hit them.
If you choose to Guard break after you block their attack, and they choose to dodge, or try to block your attack, then you will connect with the guard break, giving you the change to hit them with one weak attack (R1/RB, if you use a strong attack, they will dodge back before it connects). But if you try to guard break them after blocking their attack, and they choose to swing, you will get hit by their attack. (Trying the R1/RT strong attack built in blocks won't work because they can dodge out of their attack, then counter while your in your swing recovery.)

So fighting an Orochi (which most people choose) leaves you with those options with are all predicated on them attacking you. Which is a little annoying, but doesn't necessarily makes them OP, until you factor in the health system.
The problem is when you get them to red health. You can't attack them outright, because they just keep dodging back, and unless you are another Orochi, or perhaps a Beserker, you will never catch them. So you have to wait until they attack you. But when they attack you, the only thing you can hit them with is an weak (R1/RB) attack, which isn't strong enough to take down a full bar of health, so no matter how many times you hit them, they just keep backing up until they health bar fills up again. The only way to defeat this is to force them into a corner like this guy is suggesting, which it still a huge hassle, and very difficult if the other player is aware that's the only way they can lose

[BingleBamp]

Really like this post, points out not just parry is powerful, but the other tools in the Orochi kit. I did manage to test a decent amount of this game from the duel mode(managed to get in with a friends simply by matchmaking at the same time), it seems from my experience the problems of Orochi stem from how much control he has over a match compared to other characters. If your in trouble in dominion just run, if you need spacing dodge spam away/unlock and sprint, if your confident with your blocks parry, or just punish with the dodge attack. As well as the one I'm most concerned with: how good an Orochi player a year after release will be when he's just parrying everything? While I haven't played much fighting games per say, I have played Chivalry and M&B, this character really feels like the top tier stuff people would do in those games, while being significantly easier to pull off. All of this could be inexperience though, always have to keep that in mind, this is the first time I had access to this game even though I did play it non stop. Always gotta keep that in the back of our heads gents, and never get attached to early balance theories, but those are my two cents.

[Qiwi94]

Sure I'd like some of those changes, but the main thing I want to get nerfed is deflect light attack. Mostly deflects in general. And that together with either no true combo after Storm Rush or something like a slower backdash is enough for Orochi. One step at a time.

[Dark-Thomy]

Kensei and Raider were the only ones that had some attacks that could reach me while brainlessly (without particular timing) backdodging into Storm Rush.

[MNSUAngel]

I respectively disagree that a nerf is required for SR. The fact of the matter is, I played against at least two players during the alpha who always, and I mean always, successfully blocked the attack. It was like it was the easiest thing in the world.

That's because it is.

You see the fact that SS is used from a greater distance than regular light attacks mean that you have a much larger window of time to coordinate your block. Blocking in general is Orochi's biggest weakness, since he/she relies on fast punishment. If your opponent is able to block said punishment, the Orochi is still able to be punished in return.

Having said that, however, I think you proposed several nerfs that I as a player would be okay with, even though I think they are unnecessary. To be honest, I think the move is perfectly balanced with the character's playstyle and damage output in mind. Free minds are allowed to disagree and that is okay with me.

_______________________________________
User: MNSUAngel
Hours Played: Between 20-30 hrs.
Duel Footage: https://youtu.be/hMMMD_hMlV4

[Dark-Thomy]

I respectively disagree that a nerf is required for SR. The fact of the matter is, I played against at least two players during the alpha who always, and I mean always, successfully blocked the attack. It was like it was the easiest thing in the world.

That's because it is.

You see the fact that SS is used from a greater distance than regular light attacks mean that you have a much larger window of time to coordinate your block. Blocking in general is Orochi's biggest weakness, since he/she relies on fast punishment. If your opponent is able to block said punishment, the Orochi is still able to be punished in return.

Having said that, however, I think you proposed several nerfs that I as a player would be okay with, even though I think they are unnecessary. To be honest, I think the move is perfectly balanced with the character's playstyle and damage output in mind. Free minds are allowed to disagree and that is okay with me.

It looks like you didn't read the op's post since his main point is that Storm Rush gives too much control.
Of course the raw attack is easy to guard, but that's not the problem at all.
Any good Orochi will cancel a Storm rush over and over and you enter in a situation where the opponent cannot attack actually, whereas the Orochi cannot get punished.


By the way, it is confirmed that (at least during the closed alpha) a successfull storm rush equaled a free light attack ; also, something nobody seemed to notice, back throwing was also a free light attack.
(and of course, guardbreaking was a free heavy for only the Orochi)

https://youtu.be/pwP-RK6ufAw?t=1h9m15s
[revelation stream of Ubisoft]

[MNSUAngel]

It looks like you didn't read the op's post since his main point is that Storm Rush gives too much control.
Of course the raw attack is easy to guard, but that's not the problem at all.
Any good Orochi will cancel a Storm rush over and over and you enter in a situation where the opponent cannot attack actually, whereas the Orochi cannot get punished.


By the way, it is confirmed that (at least during the closed alpha) a successfull storm rush equaled a free light attack ; also, something nobody seemed to notice, back throwing was also a free light attack.
(and of course, guardbreaking was a free heavy for only the Orochi)

https://youtu.be/pwP-RK6ufAw?t=1h9m15s
[revelation stream of Ubisoft]

OP's argument is an amalgamation of points and control was one of them, but control was not the main point. I am going to ignore the obvious bait there.

I did not discuss control because control is something that the Orochi was clearly designed for, as is typical for characters that are fast and spam-heavy. To say that one character has "too much control" when the developers intended them to have that control seems entitled. They know better than we do, it is their creation.

"Any good Orochi will cancel a Storm rush over and over. The opponent cannot actually attack, and the Orochi cannot get punished." (spelling, grammar, and omission edits to make it easier to read). This is a fallacy. The truth is that a good opponent will abuse this fake-out play-style with dash punishes. This is especially true with the Warden. Because SR can be blocked, it can easily be punished, whether it is canceled or not.

"A successful storm rush equaled a free light attack. Back throwing also equaled a free light attack. Guardbreaking was a free heavy, and only for the Orochi." (spelling, grammar, and omission edits to make it easier to read). These statements are all true, and there is nothing broken about any of them. These are intentional design decisions, and the development of the character is very clear on that. The fastest character would be able to punish with guardbreaking the hardest, because their heavy attack is faster than the other characters. (Same analysis for back throwing). SR is a move that was designed to punish. A free light attack after it connects accents the move in a meaningful way.

Also, it can be blocked.


_______________________________________
User: MNSUAngel
Hours Played: Between 20-30 hrs.
Duel Footage: https://youtu.be/hMMMD_hMlV4