Thoughts on Orochi & Suggested Tweaks | Forums

[ServiusOrtus]

So I started last alpha maining Kensei, got him prestiged, and this alpha I've been switching between Warden & Kensei primarily. In the last 2 days though I started experimenting with Orochi after reading the moveset and seeing that their guard is much more active which I think is cool and could be fun.

Having now played a decent amount of Orochi and played against them a bunch I think I understand both sides of people's opinions on the Orochi balance.

First off, I don't think Orochi is inherently brokenly overpowered. I think the issue is that they have too many different defensive options at their disposal compared to other characters.

I think the Orochi's deflect mechanic combined with their fast dodges are essentially a bridge too far for a character that should either be deflect based alone or dodge based alone.

The deflect itself is annoying, but I'm not yet sure if its itself OP. In a vacuum of an Orochi that utilizes deflect a lot as their primary defensive mechanic and plays defense only, I've found the most effective method of dealing with them is to use feints. The problem is that currently Feints are pretty poorly explained in the game and are kind of difficult to master, and a very good Orochi can still proc deflects of them, though the feints make it significantly harder.

On the other side, as an experiment I played my Orochi and (because I'm terrible at proc'ing deflects) used dodges as my primary defense mechanic and I felt like my playstyle as an orochi was much more active (as an assassin should be) and I never really felt underpowered and still had a pretty solid toolkit at my disposal even without utilizing deflects. My only issue is that I would more often than not accidentally proc a deflect which would sometimes feel cheesey since I was simply trying to transition from a block into a light.

So my suggested tweaks here are that I think the Orochi should probably lose the deflect mechanic since I feel like they may still be extremely viable without it. With just their unique dash combos & active guard (minus deflect) I really honestly feel like the Orochi is perfectly balanced and encourages a really unique assassin-y active dodge-based playstyle.

I don't think the deflect mechanic itself should be scrapped though, since I think it could be really cool and help bring feinting into a more visible attack paradigm which it should be. I think Deflect should be on a different class, one that doesn't have as good of dashes and dodges as the Orochi. Or alternatively the deflect could replace the Active Guard entirely and thus force the class into always being on point (and thus making feints potentially more regularly effective). I really believe Deflect has some real solid potential as a unique class's primary defense or attack mechanism, but it should not be paired with the Orochi's dash paradigm + active guard.

[Yianyan]

I think the kit is fine as it is it's just that some things chain flawlessly, the damage numbers are too high, and the mobility/tracking is sky high. The retreating strong attack has a lot of versatility in feinting but it also presents massive damage: it does decent on it's own and it seamlessly chains into pure damage on the twin top hits for easily half the health of some characters. If it were lower damage and/or wasn't a guaranteed three hit combo off one hit then it wouldn't be quite so bad. Every other character presents opportunities in their chains to block/parry/disengage to avoid damage - not true of the "staple" of the Orochi. Lowered stun so the damage isn't guaranteed or not dealing half of someone's health off of one attack landing would probably be the first step.

[ServiusOrtus]

The back dash into heavy can be very easily countered either with a simple guard, sweep attack, or even a simple light will interrupt. Its only ever super effective if someone goes hard into a heavy or guard break while out of range, but then its hardly any different from any other punishing heavy. The flawless chains are only an issue if they're chained off of deflects and only then if you're not on your guard game. The move to counter a deflect chain is to guard or back with a dodge since their range is so short.

[Utiliy.]

I think the kit is fine as it is it's just that some things chain flawlessly, the damage numbers are too high, and the mobility/tracking is sky high. The retreating strong attack has a lot of versatility in feinting but it also presents massive damage: it does decent on it's own and it seamlessly chains into pure damage on the twin top hits for easily half the health of some characters. If it were lower damage and/or wasn't a guaranteed three hit combo off one hit then it wouldn't be quite so bad. Every other character presents opportunities in their chains to block/parry/disengage to avoid damage - not true of the "staple" of the Orochi. Lowered stun so the damage isn't guaranteed or not dealing half of someone's health off of one attack landing would probably be the first step.

I completely disagree with your opinion. I think Orochi stand fine as it is in terms of damage and movement. Yes Orochi is very mobile and might confuse you if you are fairly new to dueling Orochi, but once you know Orochi, it become quite even. It is funny how you say overhead 2 top hit does lots of damage because its true for every single character in this game. you get overhead strong attack twice in any character and tell me it is different from others. Just like any other character, you got hit because you made a mistake and didnt dodge. When Orochi engage backstab combo, easiest way to counter in backstep in any char followed by weak attack or guard break. This is game of rock scissor paper where you make a choice and opponent make a wrong counter to you. You just need to man up and learn the game. then maybe Orochi won't become to OP to you.

[Yianyan]

I completely disagree with your opinion. I think Orochi stand fine as it is in terms of damage and movement. Yes Orochi is very mobile and might confuse you if you are fairly new to dueling Orochi, but once you know Orochi, it become quite even. It is funny how you say overhead 2 top hit does lots of damage because its true for every single character in this game. you get overhead strong attack twice in any character and tell me it is different from others. Just like any other character, you got hit because you made a mistake and didnt dodge. When Orochi engage backstab combo, easiest way to counter in backstep in any char followed by weak attack or guard break. This is game of rock scissor paper where you make a choice and opponent make a wrong counter to you. You just need to man up and learn the game. then maybe Orochi won't become to OP to you.

2 overhead top hit does lots of damage regardless of character, certainly, but you can block or parry potentially any of those 2 hits from any character. The specific situation I'm mostly talking about is making ONE mistake, getting hit by the retreating heavy and then being stunned by it too long to block the incoming overhead attack which then chains without any chance of blocking into another. The resulting damage is half your health. Half your health for one mistake. Every other class can chunk pretty hard off of one attack, sure, but not that hard. It's not a matter of learning to counter it, because I'm not saying it's uncounterable: I'm saying it offers too much damage for a single opportunity to stop it.

[Utiliy.]

In my point of view, if Orochi lose deflect, it is going to be even more Op than other char. if guard mechanic follows rest of character, then Orochi can not only still parry but also give constant guard point. Current Orochi do not gain constant guard point. Also just being able to dodge makes high skill capped match very uneven. In my view dodging is very nice mechanic, but in the end it is gimmick in the end. Let me explain why- no guard and doding only char will be very terrain dependant as there are plenty of small alleys in the map that limits movement. Second, say you dodged the attack, then what? do windslash where direction of swing is already locked? If so, experienced character will only attack once then parry in the direction of Orochi's dodge to ensure guaranteed parry. There is no follow up/ punishment implanted with dodge skills of Orochi. It only adds depth of the play and give feel of agile to Orochi.

[ServiusOrtus]

In my point of view, if Orochi lose deflect, it is going to be even more Op than other char. if guard mechanic follows rest of character, then Orochi can not only still parry but also give constant guard point. Current Orochi do not gain constant guard point. Also just being able to dodge makes high skill capped match very uneven. In my view dodging is very nice mechanic, but in the end it is gimmick in the end. Let me explain why- no guard and doding only char will be very terrain dependant as there are plenty of small alleys in the map that limits movement. Second, say you dodged the attack, then what? do windslash where direction of swing is already locked? If so, experienced character will only attack once then parry in the direction of Orochi's dodge to ensure guaranteed parry. There is no follow up/ punishment implanted with dodge skills of Orochi. It only adds depth of the play and give feel of agile to Orochi.

No, I'm saying that the Orochi should keep the active guard (requires them to time guards and cannot passively guard) but lose Deflect (the capacity to time a guard like a parry and chain into an unblockable counter attack).

As per your point about dodging being a gimmick, environmental management is already important for every character just by virtue of the capacity for any environmental kills, I don't see how this is any different, and I have fought effectively with Orochi in close quarters since your side doges take you in a circle and your back dash lets you space easily out of close quarters if you'd prefer not to.

As for dodging attacks, the key is to reset the momentum not go straight into an attack, I never do a dash side light unless I'm feinting a different direciton prior or am punishing them for a failed guardbreak or heavy.

[Cliffle]

Deflect is situational in that it punishes people for swinging without thought or trying to force combos. You bring up fair points, but I don't think dodging and standard blocking should be their only means of defense.

The deflect/counter mechanic adds another layer of depth to fights. It makes an opponent think twice about forcing combos, which causes them to adapt and change tactics. It wouldn't be fun to only worry about an orochi dodging.. because that's really all that it'd be if I'm playing conqueror or raider. Would only have to space them out and parry their predictable attacks. Should the deflect mechanic be tweaked? Sure. Taken out entirely? No, I don't think that would be a good change at all if it's taking out any depth from combat. Next thing you know we'll be discussing taking out feints or stuns.

[ServiusOrtus]

Deflect is situational in that it punishes people for swinging without thought or trying to force combos. You bring up fair points, but I don't think dodging and standard blocking should be their only means of defense.

The deflect/counter mechanic adds another layer of depth to fights. It makes an opponent think twice about forcing combos, which causes them to adapt and change tactics. It wouldn't be fun to only worry about an orochi dodging.. because that's really all that it'd be if I'm playing conqueror or raider. Would only have to space them out and parry their predictable attacks. Should the deflect mechanic be tweaked? Sure. Taken out entirely? No, I don't think that would be a good change at all if it's taking out any depth from combat. Next thing you know we'll be discussing taking out feints or stuns.

I don't want Deflect out of the game entirely, as I've said before I think, like you said, it adds a really interesting shift of how defense & attacks work.

Again though, let me reiterate, I think on the Orochi, the deflect combined with the dash combos and active guard is a bridge too far in terms of their versatility. Orochi without Deflect (just Active Guard & Dashing/Dodges) is hardly any more boring or predictable than other kits. Again I played almost exclusively using that and never or only accidentally proc'ing Deflect attacks and was able to be effective against every other class.

I think Deflect should be its own defense paradigm in a unique kit, I think it is as strong if not stronger a defense system (if more difficult to regularly perform) as passive guards or dodges.

Either way I think the issue lies in the simple fact that no other class has as many tools to use on defense as Orochi. No one else has both the speed, dodge distance, dash combos, and deflect that Orochi has.

[On Instiinct]

Okay this post is genius. You already know my disdain for the dodging. I agree with you, he should either be defensively dodge based or defensively block based and not both. Either keep Recovery Dodge and get rid of Deflect or vice versa. Very good post!