The Orochi is NOT OP. | Forums

[kaveman528]

agreed, i mained conqueror and then switched to orochi and i was still getting good fair fights in, unless i went against the occasional un-experienced player

[Boorgogne]

Orochi is not an OP class, but it clearly has an advantage over the others. I played 24 Hrs of the closed alpha and finished with a 90% win rate by only dueling, so I've had my share of orochis and I know how to fight them. The unbalanced moves from the orochi's kit become really apparent when you face advanced orochi players. I'll give the reason why each of these moves are ''Broken'' and I'll make suggestions on how to fix them without making the orochi not viable, here we go:

STORM RUSH:
- If you do a light attack and the orochi back step at the same time, he can immediatly storm rush and hit you without you being able to block. No other class has this much punish power.
Change the timing of storm rush so that you can punish a heavy attack but not a light attack

-If storm rush lands, the orochi can follow up with a free double upward light attack that can't be blocked or dodged (if the orochi takes too much time you can block it). This combo does half a raider's health. The amount of effort required to do this much damage is to low compared to other classes.
Make the double upward light attack blockable after storm rush

DEFLECT COUNTER:
- Orochi can do deflect counter on his 3 stances compared to the warden who can only do his with the top stance. Because it is available on all 3 stances and the damage is unavoidable, it gives way too much defensive power to the orochi when facing any opponents.
To balance this, you should be able to parry the counter if your timing is good enough like you can with the other unblockable attacks (raider/Kensei)

RB+RT SWEEP:
- Extremely fast move with really good range and damage. If you block it, it staggers so you can't counter attack. Can't dodge it on the side because the hitboxe of the attack is too large, you can only dodge backward. If you succeed in dodging it, you can't punish it because the distance between you and the orochi is too great. The only way to punish it when you dodged is to play as an orochi and do a stormrush (the irony...). A good orochi can spam this move to completly out space his opponent and counter any feints you throw at him.
Make it so the move doesn't stagger you on block and make it a little slower

[Muppetlords]

Very well summarized Boorgogne. I couldn't agree more.

[ZechsMarquizy]

Please don't make comments on balance unless you have reached Renown 2+ because "to put as politely as possible" you don't start getting the blue and purple gear till you have gotten past Renown 2 lv.5+ (blues) lv.15+ (Small chance at Epics) and even then you need to max those out to lv.12 to even begin testing things. So to put frankly if you havent done this then with respect you know nothing about the games current balance issues nor what classes are strongest or weakest and should reframe from commenting on such.

The reason is not just playtime or experience as much as it is late game gear and items as the stats do carry over in to duels, and brawls, its not just for Dominion. So this wont be a perfect explanation but bare with me. Making this as simplistic and accurate as possible lets just use decimals of 0.5 up to a max of 10.0

Weapons - Specifically the "Damage" stat usually starts at anywhere between 4.5 - 5.5 all depending on classes. However scaling doesn't seem to play a very big role here and if it does its not noticeable. Once you get a blue blade for the Orochi and get it to Lv.12 the damage stat will be just a hair away from being maxed out, so about 9.0 or 9.5 > At this point the orochi will take half of any classes total HP in just 1 overhead combo, The unavoidable counter will take away almost a whopping 70% of your total hp - (Again keep in-mind it doesnt matter what class you are) 2 light attacks and half your hp is gone, 1 insta counter = even more than that is gone. This is dumb, and even if you want to claim that this is wont be the case we tested this on a conq with a maxed out blue chest armor with defence stat as high as it can go. I could care less what any of you have to say about this, Orochi need's to be nerfed to the ground. The Orochi is way to easy to learn and even easier to master, on top of that they have the fastest attack speed annimation moveset in the entire game thus far and when you combine these 3 things with there obviously way to beefy attack damage later on in the game they become a serious issue in terms on balance.

Easy fix = 1.) Reduce Orochi's Base Damage by 40-45% making it impossible for the Orochi class to get an attack damage stat to 9.0-9.5 but instead a 5.5-6.0
2.) Remove there parry+insta counter completely and don't give that lame class anything to replace it with.


These 2 suggestions may seem harsh but this will be a solid starting point on the road to being balanced. Like it or not but dont try to argue with childish banter, face the facts and man up to your own ego's. The Orochi is 100% overpowered and if you were using this class or worse defending this class then all you have done was admit how incredibly ill informed you were. The Dev's have already stated that the orochi itself has a crazy high winrate compaired to all the other classes (this is all wins and losses of all players who used this class) thats rite boys and girls it was all recorded and guess what class had the highest winrate? ................ The Orochi, and not by a small margin. That classes winrate was so appalling in the first Alpha it got nerfed on day 3 then they had to "extend" the first alpha further to see the new winrate.

Again, enough with this discussion. You have nothing more to argue about. The class is OP and nothing you say will change that fact.

Edit: P.S. Buff Warden

[Razor__Fox]

Please don't make comments on balance unless you have reached Renown 2+ because "to put as politely as possible" you don't start getting the blue and purple gear till you have gotten past Renown 2 lv.5+ (blues) lv.15+ (Small chance at Epics) and even then you need to max those out to lv.12 to even begin testing things. So to put frankly if you havent done this then with respect you know nothing about the games current balance issues nor what classes are strongest or weakest and should reframe from commenting on such.

The reason is not just playtime or experience as much as it is late game gear and items as the stats do carry over in to duels, and brawls, its not just for Dominion. So this wont be a perfect explanation but bare with me. Making this as simplistic and accurate as possible lets just use decimals of 0.5 up to a max of 10.0

Weapons - Specifically the "Damage" stat usually starts at anywhere between 4.5 - 5.5 all depending on classes. However scaling doesn't seem to play a very big role here and if it does its not noticeable. Once you get a blue blade for the Orochi and get it to Lv.12 the damage stat will be just a hair away from being maxed out, so about 9.0 or 9.5 > At this point the orochi will take half of any classes total HP in just 1 overhead combo, The unavoidable counter will take away almost a whopping 70% of your total hp - (Again keep in-mind it doesnt matter what class you are) 2 light attacks and half your hp is gone, 1 insta counter = even more than that is gone. This is dumb, and even if you want to claim that this is wont be the case we tested this on a conq with a maxed out blue chest armor with defence stat as high as it can go. I could care less what any of you have to say about this, Orochi need's to be nerfed to the ground. The Orochi is way to easy to learn and even easier to master, on top of that they have the fastest attack speed annimation moveset in the entire game thus far and when you combine these 3 things with there obviously way to beefy attack damage later on in the game they become a serious issue in terms on balance.

Easy fix = 1.) Reduce Orochi's Base Damage by 40-45% making it impossible for the Orochi class to get an attack damage stat to 9.0-9.5 but instead a 5.5-6.0
2.) Remove there parry+insta counter completely and don't give that lame class anything to replace it with.


These 2 suggestions may seem harsh but this will be a solid starting point on the road to being balanced. Like it or not but dont try to argue with childish banter, face the facts and man up to your own ego's. The Orochi is 100% overpowered and if you were using this class or worse defending this class then all you have done was admit how incredibly ill informed you were. The Dev's have already stated that the orochi itself has a crazy high winrate compaired to all the other classes (this is all wins and losses of all players who used this class) thats rite boys and girls it was all recorded and guess what class had the highest winrate? ................ The Orochi, and not by a small margin. That classes winrate was so appalling in the first Alpha it got nerfed on day 3 then they had to "extend" the first alpha further to see the new winrate.

Again, enough with this discussion. You have nothing more to argue about. The class is OP and nothing you say will change that fact.

Edit: P.S. Buff Warden

hmm.... Its weird because I GOT to the level you state as being the threshold for being allowed an opinion, and I STILL didn't find the Orochi to be OP. In fact if anything I found them quite predictable, mostly just trying to storm rush which is a fairly easy to block. it could be because I was mostly playing conqueror which is really good at stopping combos and disrupting rhythm. Maybe I just got incredibly lucky and every single one of the thousands of orochi players I went against sucked (and duel mode was FULL of them, So I wonder if word got out they were an automatic win or something) but in my experience they there wasn't ANY class that stood out as glaringly OP.

There need to be some tweaks here and there to quite a few of the classes of course, the game is certainly not perfect. but to argue that "MY OPINION ON THIS CHARACTER IS CORRECT AND THERE CAN BE NO DISCUSSION ON IT" doesn't really bring much to the table.

But by all means nerf the orochi, I don't really like playing as it so its only going to benefit me.

[CaptainSageboot]

Finally someone who understands, sick and tired of people always hating on the orochi when they are simply bad and arent willing to put in the extra work to get better

I agree, too many people I've played with are always rushing and attacking or trying to throw you off edges, they never bother parrying and blocking or learning peoples moves. In the last Alpha everyone I played with was much more slow paced and thought out their attacks more which lead to these insanely tense battles. I think people just need to learn the game better instead of spamming attacks and running out of stamina so much.

[CaptainSageboot]

Please don't make comments on balance unless you have reached Renown 2+ because "to put as politely as possible" you don't start getting the blue and purple gear till you have gotten past Renown 2 lv.5+ (blues) lv.15+ (Small chance at Epics) and even then you need to max those out to lv.12 to even begin testing things. So to put frankly if you havent done this then with respect you know nothing about the games current balance issues nor what classes are strongest or weakest and should reframe from commenting on such.

The reason is not just playtime or experience as much as it is late game gear and items as the stats do carry over in to duels, and brawls, its not just for Dominion. So this wont be a perfect explanation but bare with me. Making this as simplistic and accurate as possible lets just use decimals of 0.5 up to a max of 10.0

Weapons - Specifically the "Damage" stat usually starts at anywhere between 4.5 - 5.5 all depending on classes. However scaling doesn't seem to play a very big role here and if it does its not noticeable. Once you get a blue blade for the Orochi and get it to Lv.12 the damage stat will be just a hair away from being maxed out, so about 9.0 or 9.5 > At this point the orochi will take half of any classes total HP in just 1 overhead combo, The unavoidable counter will take away almost a whopping 70% of your total hp - (Again keep in-mind it doesnt matter what class you are) 2 light attacks and half your hp is gone, 1 insta counter = even more than that is gone. This is dumb, and even if you want to claim that this is wont be the case we tested this on a conq with a maxed out blue chest armor with defence stat as high as it can go. I could care less what any of you have to say about this, Orochi need's to be nerfed to the ground. The Orochi is way to easy to learn and even easier to master, on top of that they have the fastest attack speed annimation moveset in the entire game thus far and when you combine these 3 things with there obviously way to beefy attack damage later on in the game they become a serious issue in terms on balance.

Easy fix = 1.) Reduce Orochi's Base Damage by 40-45% making it impossible for the Orochi class to get an attack damage stat to 9.0-9.5 but instead a 5.5-6.0
2.) Remove there parry+insta counter completely and don't give that lame class anything to replace it with.


These 2 suggestions may seem harsh but this will be a solid starting point on the road to being balanced. Like it or not but dont try to argue with childish banter, face the facts and man up to your own ego's. The Orochi is 100% overpowered and if you were using this class or worse defending this class then all you have done was admit how incredibly ill informed you were. The Dev's have already stated that the orochi itself has a crazy high winrate compaired to all the other classes (this is all wins and losses of all players who used this class) thats rite boys and girls it was all recorded and guess what class had the highest winrate? ................ The Orochi, and not by a small margin. That classes winrate was so appalling in the first Alpha it got nerfed on day 3 then they had to "extend" the first alpha further to see the new winrate.

Again, enough with this discussion. You have nothing more to argue about. The class is OP and nothing you say will change that fact.

Edit: P.S. Buff Warden

This just sounds really biased, people still have a right to an opinion. If what you say is true then really this is a matter of nerfing their item stats not the character. The character is easy to predict and counter with any class.

[CaptainSageboot]

Played an absolute insane amount of For Honor this weekend. I mostly played Duel and Brawl, and almost all of it as a Conq. Got him up to prestige 2 level 15, as well as a couple of the other heroes (Orochi, Kensei, Berserker) to 10-15. In that time, I played against a lot of Orochi's. By a mile, they were the most common class I would see in Duel and Brawl. There are two big problems with the Orochi; the first is how easy it is to play. The second is how far above the point of balance it is.

Starting with how easy he is to play. Ironically, listed as hard, the Orochi is without a doubt the easiest class to play at a decent level. They don't need to learn how to parry due to their deflect mechanic, and they don't need to discover any combo's to play around with as it's handed to them on a platter with the dash into top light x2. THIS is why most players will say the Orochi is overpowered. For the record, they're not wrong, at least in my opinion, that the Orochi is too strong, but they are calling it OP for the wrong reasons. To get to the same level as you are with the Orochi as another class, it requires a much bigger investment. You need to figure out what combo's you can get away with, absolutely need to learn how to parry if you want to get anywhere and everything is harder earned. It's fantastic, and while we're here, I really think a big step forward into fixing problem A of the Orochi (being too easy to play) would be to make the deflect mechanic harder to perform. I'm thinking like a parry, but instead, you use rb instead of rt. Simple change; makes them harder to play as for new players; won't make a lick of difference to high level players. This should go the same for the Berserker, FYI.

Problem B of the Orochi is, I'm afraid to say, they're just too strong. Now, maybe this is a symptom of the gear problem the game has which destroys game balance when you hit higher prestiges, but as a Conqueror, the Orochi dash into top light x2 dealt 45% of my health. 45% of the supposed tankiest character the alpha had to offer. That's something I'm fine with, the dash is really telegraphed, and if the Orochi isn't using feints, you can avoid it 9/10 times. When they start feinting however, as all high level players will, you enter a world of hurt. The effort other classes had to put into defeating me was significantly higher than an Orochi. I could **** up 4 or 5 times in a single duel and still take a win against literally any other class. If you **** up twice against a high level Orochi, you're done. 90% done in the dash combo, follow that up with the zone attack and you've got a dead enemy. Simply put, the dash deals far too much damage to ALSO guarantee further damage on top. Suggested change, in my opinion, would be to EITHER lower the damage on the dash, or, remove the guaranteed top lights that follow a dash; allow a player to parry or block those so the combo isn't so brain dead. If that's achieved, I think the Orochi would be much more manageable at a higher level, and you'll actually have to work to win your duels, rather than winning in two combos.

TL;DR make the deflect mechanic of Assassin's harder to perform, not because the mechanic is too strong, but because the mechanic is too easy, making the characters disproportionately easy to play compared to the other classes. Remove the guaranteed top light follow up from the Orochi dash attack so counterplay is an option if you make a mistake.

I agree with what you said about the Orochi being to easy to play which is probably the biggest appeal about the class. Also I feel as if gear shouldn't be involved in Duel and Brawl as the point of the two modes is skill. If gear is really the problem here then they need to just nerf Orochi's gear.

[Delscen]

Please don't make comments on balance unless you have reached Renown 2+ because "to put as politely as possible" you don't start getting the blue and purple gear till you have gotten past Renown 2 lv.5+ (blues) lv.15+ (Small chance at Epics) and even then you need to max those out to lv.12 to even begin testing things. So to put frankly if you havent done this then with respect you know nothing about the games current balance issues nor what classes are strongest or weakest and should reframe from commenting on such.

The reason is not just playtime or experience as much as it is late game gear and items as the stats do carry over in to duels, and brawls, its not just for Dominion. So this wont be a perfect explanation but bare with me. Making this as simplistic and accurate as possible lets just use decimals of 0.5 up to a max of 10.0

Weapons - Specifically the "Damage" stat usually starts at anywhere between 4.5 - 5.5 all depending on classes. However scaling doesn't seem to play a very big role here and if it does its not noticeable. Once you get a blue blade for the Orochi and get it to Lv.12 the damage stat will be just a hair away from being maxed out, so about 9.0 or 9.5 > At this point the orochi will take half of any classes total HP in just 1 overhead combo, The unavoidable counter will take away almost a whopping 70% of your total hp - (Again keep in-mind it doesnt matter what class you are) 2 light attacks and half your hp is gone, 1 insta counter = even more than that is gone. This is dumb, and even if you want to claim that this is wont be the case we tested this on a conq with a maxed out blue chest armor with defence stat as high as it can go. I could care less what any of you have to say about this, Orochi need's to be nerfed to the ground. The Orochi is way to easy to learn and even easier to master, on top of that they have the fastest attack speed annimation moveset in the entire game thus far and when you combine these 3 things with there obviously way to beefy attack damage later on in the game they become a serious issue in terms on balance.

Easy fix = 1.) Reduce Orochi's Base Damage by 40-45% making it impossible for the Orochi class to get an attack damage stat to 9.0-9.5 but instead a 5.5-6.0
2.) Remove there parry+insta counter completely and don't give that lame class anything to replace it with.


These 2 suggestions may seem harsh but this will be a solid starting point on the road to being balanced. Like it or not but dont try to argue with childish banter, face the facts and man up to your own ego's. The Orochi is 100% overpowered and if you were using this class or worse defending this class then all you have done was admit how incredibly ill informed you were. The Dev's have already stated that the orochi itself has a crazy high winrate compaired to all the other classes (this is all wins and losses of all players who used this class) thats rite boys and girls it was all recorded and guess what class had the highest winrate? ................ The Orochi, and not by a small margin. That classes winrate was so appalling in the first Alpha it got nerfed on day 3 then they had to "extend" the first alpha further to see the new winrate.

Again, enough with this discussion. You have nothing more to argue about. The class is OP and nothing you say will change that fact.

Edit: P.S. Buff Warden

Hate to be that one guy but you just suck, and you sound sour as hell. I had no problem dealing with Orochis even at Rep 2. I won't waste time explaining the reasoning for their win ratio for narrow-minded people like you. And I BEG YOU, BEG YOU, to link me proof dev said they're OP. The most I've seen is them providing a guide to deal with them, and that alone is proof it takes some managing to fight an Orochi, not extreme nerfing. I agree they need a bit of tuning down, and Warden needs more moveset, but no more. You saying they need to be nerf to the ground shows your incapability to play against them, and that's sad. I have no pity for people like you. People are entitled to say whatever they want, and you can't say otherwise. I'll be the one guy that say, go **** yourself.

[Mr.Riot]

Orochi is not an OP class, but it clearly has an advantage over the others. I played 24 Hrs of the closed alpha and finished with a 90% win rate by only dueling, so I've had my share of orochis and I know how to fight them. The unbalanced moves from the orochi's kit become really apparent when you face advanced orochi players. I'll give the reason why each of these moves are ''Broken'' and I'll make suggestions on how to fix them without making the orochi not viable, here we go:

STORM RUSH:
- If you do a light attack and the orochi back step at the same time, he can immediatly storm rush and hit you without you being able to block. No other class has this much punish power.
Change the timing of storm rush so that you can punish a heavy attack but not a light attack

-If storm rush lands, the orochi can follow up with a free double upward light attack that can't be blocked or dodged (if the orochi takes too much time you can block it). This combo does half a raider's health. The amount of effort required to do this much damage is to low compared to other classes.
Make the double upward light attack blockable after storm rush

DEFLECT COUNTER:
- Orochi can do deflect counter on his 3 stances compared to the warden who can only do his with the top stance. Because it is available on all 3 stances and the damage is unavoidable, it gives way too much defensive power to the orochi when facing any opponents.
To balance this, you should be able to parry the counter if your timing is good enough like you can with the other unblockable attacks (raider/Kensei)

RB+RT SWEEP:
- Extremely fast move with really good range and damage. If you block it, it staggers so you can't counter attack. Can't dodge it on the side because the hitboxe of the attack is too large, you can only dodge backward. If you succeed in dodging it, you can't punish it because the distance between you and the orochi is too great. The only way to punish it when you dodged is to play as an orochi and do a stormrush (the irony...). A good orochi can spam this move to completly out space his opponent and counter any feints you throw at him.
Make it so the move doesn't stagger you on block and make it a little slower

I totally agree with the storm rush being able to go through a light attack is kinda too much. But i don't think any follow up attack is a free hit including the top light combo, atleast every time i got hit with it still showed indicators.

Your deflect counter suggestion sounds very reasonable and I can definitely get behind it.

Idk about the R1+R2. To me it seems too slow and very telegraphing. Besides every characters R1+R2 seems to do the same thing at the same speed and same distance. But Idk I haven't really seen much R1+R2's in actually fights.

I really dont think the orochi is OP, you can say he is currently on top of the tier list but someone has to be number 1. And whoever it happens to be will always get hate. Also I just hate how people are never willing to change their play-style to adapt to a certain hero. If we didn't have characters like the orochi, berserker, and conqueror we would be having the same fights over and over again. No change in play-style=stale and repetitive gameplay.

Just see how your opponent plays. If the orochi is a defensive player then use GB and attack cancels. If he is an offensive player then you already know that he is not gonna counter as much and you can block his attacks and start throwing attacks his way as well. Parrying and dodging well work wonders as well against his offensive play. I once had a fight with an orochi where i would just block all his attacks until he ran out of stamina lol.

Overall I do think he is very powerful with many tools that should get some readjustments but in the end think people are really not trying at all against this guy and instead would rather complain.

P.S I admit I do play the orochi BUT I play the warden more and am comfortable fighting orochis with my warden. I can also fight orochis with the raider as well just not as good only becuz didnt play him as much.