The Orochi is NOT OP. | Forums

[Muppetlords]

Please don't make comments on balance unless you have reached Renown 2+ because "to put as politely as possible" you don't start getting the blue and purple gear till you have gotten past Renown 2 lv.5+ (blues) lv.15+ (Small chance at Epics) and even then you need to max those out to lv.12 to even begin testing things. So to put frankly if you havent done this then with respect you know nothing about the games current balance issues nor what classes are strongest or weakest and should reframe from commenting on such.

The reason is not just playtime or experience as much as it is late game gear and items as the stats do carry over in to duels, and brawls, its not just for Dominion. So this wont be a perfect explanation but bare with me. Making this as simplistic and accurate as possible lets just use decimals of 0.5 up to a max of 10.0

Weapons - Specifically the "Damage" stat usually starts at anywhere between 4.5 - 5.5 all depending on classes. However scaling doesn't seem to play a very big role here and if it does its not noticeable. Once you get a blue blade for the Orochi and get it to Lv.12 the damage stat will be just a hair away from being maxed out, so about 9.0 or 9.5 > At this point the orochi will take half of any classes total HP in just 1 overhead combo, The unavoidable counter will take away almost a whopping 70% of your total hp - (Again keep in-mind it doesnt matter what class you are) 2 light attacks and half your hp is gone, 1 insta counter = even more than that is gone. This is dumb, and even if you want to claim that this is wont be the case we tested this on a conq with a maxed out blue chest armor with defence stat as high as it can go. I could care less what any of you have to say about this, Orochi need's to be nerfed to the ground. The Orochi is way to easy to learn and even easier to master, on top of that they have the fastest attack speed annimation moveset in the entire game thus far and when you combine these 3 things with there obviously way to beefy attack damage later on in the game they become a serious issue in terms on balance.

Easy fix = 1.) Reduce Orochi's Base Damage by 40-45% making it impossible for the Orochi class to get an attack damage stat to 9.0-9.5 but instead a 5.5-6.0
2.) Remove there parry+insta counter completely and don't give that lame class anything to replace it with.


These 2 suggestions may seem harsh but this will be a solid starting point on the road to being balanced. Like it or not but dont try to argue with childish banter, face the facts and man up to your own ego's. The Orochi is 100% overpowered and if you were using this class or worse defending this class then all you have done was admit how incredibly ill informed you were. The Dev's have already stated that the orochi itself has a crazy high winrate compaired to all the other classes (this is all wins and losses of all players who used this class) thats rite boys and girls it was all recorded and guess what class had the highest winrate? ................ The Orochi, and not by a small margin. That classes winrate was so appalling in the first Alpha it got nerfed on day 3 then they had to "extend" the first alpha further to see the new winrate.

Again, enough with this discussion. You have nothing more to argue about. The class is OP and nothing you say will change that fact.

Edit: P.S. Buff Warden

Getting to Renown 2 isn't really about skill in it's current state, it's just about playtime.

And guess what, more playtime does not always equal more skill. I've seen videos on Youtube with people who are renown 2 and most of them are mediocre.

Saying that anyone below Renown 2 doesn't have a a voice in all of this is just mental. And if you were to say that playtime does equal more skill then remember that I also participated in the technical test where I played way more than I did in last weekends alpha.

And what? Buff Warden? I only played the Warden and I absolutely don't think he needs a buff...I can only assume you didn't spend enough time learning the character.

I have to ask a legit question, (thread worthy maybe?) how many actually main one character? Because obviously the more you play with a character the more you'll learn. Some will learn quicker than others, like I said, longer playtime does not equal more skill.

I get the feeling that very few main one character as hard as I did. Everyone might have a favorite but still play other characters every now and then. Again I played as the Warden during the entire alpha, the exp on the other characters were from my friends that were trying the game at my house. (They liked it, hurray)
I'm not saying "maining one character is the way to play" I'm just saying that I played the Warden because the more I played him the better I got and the more rewarding it felt once new tactics turned out to work. However in the technical test when I tried to switch character, it felt like it took ten steps backwards, and I couldn't deal with that so that's why I hard main one character.

Back on point... I think it's very obvious when you're playing against someone who doesn't know the character, because they don't utilize their moveset. And even when they do they often don't know WHEN to use it. I still hold firm on my belief that the Orochi is only slightly too strong and not very broken at all and still very much beatable.

Easy to play? Yes. Easy to learn? It would seem so.

Because it's so much easier to get the basics of that character I think that's a reason it's doing so well. However with others it may take much longer to get to the same point. If that's good or bad I can't say for sure. But I don't mind certain characters being easy to learn.

Just on the point of weapon and amour stats. I hate it. I din't think it belongs in a game like this.
Armour customization? **** yes! But only make it visual, rare gear? fine absolutely fine, but stats that can change the game from a skill based game to a stat based game? No please.

[DarylSyers]

people who think Orochi is op to be honest Get good and then fight one just becouse you swing your attacks at him there for making just counter the **** out of you that is why he is called Counter Attacker easy ways to kill him push him of a bridge into a hole just keep guard braking him stop with the stupid spam attacks and you can easy out skill and a orochi if your that bad just go around with your buddy.

[DARK4NE]

I don't think he's OP but what's the definition ppl are using for OP?

Is it you don't see how they are killing you?
Don't understand move Set?
Or you just too gewd you feel like you shouldn't die from another player?

Well I'll take you on a quick ride on how my journey went playing orochi which is my main through alpha

First off starting the game was clunky, after a game or 2 felt right at home.(Btw hardcore dark souls fan here owning all games along with dlc's on both consoles and blood borne exclusive) reason for picking orochi- I saw counter and agile, which is all I needed to see. At first game seemed tuff AI whoopin my but, then quickly over came that obstacle. Then time for players for my first day of playing for honor.
Learned I could mostly spam to win, second day however seemed ppl learned orochi's moves and what other ppl were doing quick so I sadly started to get owned and with orochi's small health easily getting broken down was vary unforgiving when not paying attention or messing up on an attack. So started focusing more on my moveset and started incorporateing the faint in my attacks to guard break, which resulted in winning most of the time with a kda of 17.9 at the time. As the third day came I felt I have already somewhat mastered the orochi and was heading on going to the other Heros, but as good measure felt the need to play test orochi a few more matches into day 3. And it's quite amazing how the games only out for 3 days and each day I had to completely overhaul my play style to stay toe to toe with the more hardcore or better players it seemed, which by this day everyone was parrying me. The second day was also showing loads of parrying but day 3 it's like everyone knew how my character worked and it was no game anymore it was war. Now I took my self out of combat after dieing a few amount of times and brushed up on my parrying which I so desperately needed which afterwards I felt back at home.

SideNote: orochi is fun, not so bad to learn from what I seen even though with a combo list of 6-10 for most characters I'm assuming wouldn't be that hard to pick up any. Does decent damage and you will deff win against a guy that doesn't know what their doing. Against well experienced players I would say will have to be on your toes or else one mistake can result in all your health being taken away or death if you mess up multiple times parrying as I have done Quite frequently in my start up in parrying at the time.

Have to say the hardest to parry for me given the only 3 days and small amount of parry training I had the berserk was the toughest and my kryptonite for me. Be barb would cut me down if I messed up on a parry or wasn't aggressive enough, and if I messed up and got hit then bye bye to 1/2-3/4 of your health. Warrden was frustrating as their top attacks came so quickly and hard to parry but once they kept going for it the easier it became to parry and defeat wardens for the most part. Kensi scared me to death till I went one on one with him and learned his move set and getting familiar with the combos/ moves. Same could be said with the warrden berserk large barb conqueror kensi and orochi all once learning and seeing how each one works in its own made more sense on when to attack/watch for and parry times. When not knowing I was at a more disadvantage and found my slept taking way more damage then needed and dieing.

For the most part I don't think he needs a nerf as bad as ppl say they do if one at all, from as I see things every character can be lethal and tricky as its not the characters them selves but the operators that make them so.

Which brings me to the thing I would like to mention while finishing this, I think we all need private duels between friends so we can test and hone up on our skills for each character. My belief on the orochi matter is if things where left the same orochi will be the thing of the past and the berserker will come up front as they will kill orochi's in a few hits which could be a counter which would result in team management counters for diff type of player Heros.
SideNote:before learning wardens quick high counter attacks combo I thought they were OP but this wasn't the case, was just my lack of knowledge on the Heros moves and how it worked.

But all boils down to skill I found my self dieing way more on the 3rd day as ppl weren't so confused on the orochi move set anymore and found my self having to step my game up. To the few Heros I didn't feel comfortable with parrying or attacking, once I learned move sets it wasn't so bad. Also once learning orochi's moves when facing another I do see how overwhelming aggressive they can be but they do tend to run out of stamina quite quickly along with if 2 orochi's facing off that's decent will result in a parry fest.

I died the same amount to all heros, second day was mostly kensi, wardens, and berserkers it felt like but after taking the time to learn them in a 1v1 wasn't so bad. Hope this helps^^^

Hopefully the hero won't get nurfed to a pulp cause I like the fact he's quick deadly but yet also easy to kill makes every moment fighting a skilled player that much more enjoyable.

[ARone210]

The balancing that needs to be done with the orochi is definitely move set in nature. That doesn't mean nerfing them into the ground but when people primarily saying the way to beat them is to capitalize on a mistake the player makes rather then focusing on a class weakness then maybe its worth discussing.

Also personal insults about a players skill is pointless and unhelpful. We all experienced a different set of circumstances based off skill of other players and latency issues. It may also be gear differences that played a major role who knows.

In terms of the Orochi i know there was at least one combo or combination of moves that was op. I played the orochi to try and replicate it so i could better point it out but i was never able to.

There was only one player i ran into that used it and so i am guessing most people don't know it but i played 4 matches with that guy and to learn how he played and how to counter that combo and i couldn't find a way.

He had some quick attack he always used when he first engaged that i couldn't defend against. I tried everything from blocking, parring, dodging and rolling out of the way. No matter what i did the move connected and staggered me. After i was staggered he performed a three hit combo that killed you never allowing you to fight back. I saw him do this to every class and no one was avle to defend against it. He went all four matches 20+ kills and 0 deaths. Only person i saw the whole alpha go through an entire player vs player match on dominion with out dying.

Assuming he wasn't cheating that means the orochi has a combo that is an automatic win. That seems a bit op to me but just the one combo. Fix that class would probably be fine with some other tweaks here and there.

[XJadeDragoonX]

Easiest way to know if someone is OP.... see if theres a 10 page topic with people argueing about it.

check.

dont see any other conversations on this entire forum like this one. In fact, half the posts on the forum altogether are about the orochi. thats a very telling sign lol.

[Razor__Fox]

Easiest way to know if someone is OP.... see if theres a 10 page topic with people argueing about it.

check.

dont see any other conversations on this entire forum like this one. In fact, half the posts on the forum altogether are about the orochi. thats a very telling sign lol.

It's difficult for people to get a good grip with things in a 3 day alpha though. look at overwatch. the first few months were DOMINATED by "BASTION IS OP!" "NERF/REMOVE BASTION" so on so on. These days he is barely ever picked because people have figured out how to counter him. I feel like the orochi is in a similar place. give it a month or two and people will have got to grips with him and he will be a niche pick.

[Be1dou]

It's difficult for people to get a good grip with things in a 3 day alpha though. look at overwatch. the first few months were DOMINATED by "BASTION IS OP!" "NERF/REMOVE BASTION" so on so on. These days he is barely ever picked because people have figured out how to counter him. I feel like the orochi is in a similar place. give it a month or two and people will have got to grips with him and he will be a niche pick.

Well, I've been playing playtesting this game for over 100+ hours and I started long before this closed alpha (actually been playtesting before the Oni was revamped to the Orochi). I have a 97% win ratio in Duels on PC and I believe 99% on PS4 this closed alpha, as well. If that doesn't qualify my opinion, then I don't know what does.


First of all, I want to say that if your main is a Berserker or Conqueror, you have no right to tell players to ''get good'' or whatever, because those two heroes are also OP. The Conqueror has incredibly good defense and he can counter an Orochi without an issue. The Berserker (or Wallzerker) has a broken deflect/guard break mechanic that basically gives them the complete edge if you're close by a wall or ledge. These two heroes are about even with the Orochi in terms of unbalances, so they are not something to use or brag about in relation to this topic.


Oh, and if you're an Orochi, please. Your ''weaknesses'' are barely an argument. ''Oh, but the stun from the Raider's top light attack!'' Yeah, well, basically every hero has that issue. You even share the same health pool as the Kensei.


Moving on, the Orochi isn't as OP as they used to be, but they are still clearly broken in many aspects--which is why there are always so many people complaining every playtest, mind you. Their Storm Rush and Deflect being the most notable ones. There is literally no way to counter an Orochi defending because there is no such moveset to bypass it.


Their Storm Rush is incredibly easy to execute and punish players for. Is it readable? Sure, if you're fighting a newb. But if you're actually fighting good Orochis, you'll know that it's an amazing counter attack that can be executed in no time and combo with. Perform a quick light attack? Storm Rush'd. Try to Guard Break? Storm Rush'd. The only other hero with defense that can bypass these maneuver is the Conqueror, but you're still looking at a complete stalement most of the time.


What the Orochi needs is some form of risk/reward system for their Storm Rush because it's too easy to exploit for high damage. There's a lot of great suggestions in this thread. Mine is treating it like a zone attack; half their stamina when they execute it just like the Warden's sweep attack or the Raider's unblockable. And also consume stamina while they're holding onto it. This way, players can't spam the Storm Rush > combo and they can't always rely on it as a defensive mechanic.


Also, blocked Storm Rush should stun the Orochi.


Their Deflect speaks for itself, as it doesn't take skills to activate. In fact, it favors players without skills, as it triggers when you guard at the last moment. Super easy to pull off and punish players with.


Like people have suggested, Deflect should be executed like some form of light parry. This way, it's got a risk/reward factor to it. Easy peasy.


Overall, I'm basically just repeating what people say, but I really want to bring attention to those two key aspects of the Orochi. Because the general issue with them is that they are not a glass-cannon at all. There is no double edged sword to their design like they were intended to be. They have too many advantages and so little drawbacks to their moveset.


The ironic thing is that fighting an Orochi has the feeling of what playing them SHOULD be. Unlike the Orochi, it's only the enemy players that will be punished dearly for making mistakes. This is why players feel like they're OP; because they never feel fair to fight. Personally, I've only lost once or twice against of them in a Duel in my hundreds of matches during the last closed alpha, but I rarely had fun fighting them because most of the time, I'm forced to be patient and wait for their attacks first. Or just play a Conqueror.

[DARK4NE]

Well, I've been playing playtesting this game for over 100+ hours and I started long before this closed alpha (actually been playtesting before the Oni was revamped to the Orochi). I have a 97% win ratio in Duels on PC and I believe 99% on PS4 this closed alpha, as well. If that doesn't qualify my opinion, then I don't know what does. First of all, I want to say that if your main is a Berserker or Conqueror, you have no right to tell players to ''get good'' or whatever, because those two heroes are also OP. The Conqueror has incredibly good defense and he can counter an Orochi without an issue. The Berserker (or Wallzerker) has a broken deflect/guard break mechanic that basically gives them the complete edge if you're close by a wall or ledge. These two heroes are about even with the Orochi in terms of unbalances, so they are not something to use or brag about in relation to this topic. Oh, and if you're an Orochi, please. Your ''weaknesses'' are barely an argument. ''Oh, but the stun from the Raider's top light attack!'' Yeah, well, basically every hero has that issue. You even share the same health pool as the Kensei. Moving on, the Orochi isn't as OP as they used to be, but they are still clearly broken in many aspects--which is why there are always so many people complaining every playtest, mind you. Their Storm Rush and Deflect being the most notable ones. There is literally no way to counter an Orochi defending because there is no such moveset to bypass it. Their Storm Rush is incredibly easy to execute and punish players for. Is it readable? Sure, if you're fighting a newb. But if you're actually fighting good Orochis, you'll know that it's an amazing counter attack that can be executed in no time and combo with. Perform a quick light attack? Storm Rush'd. Try to Guard Break? Storm Rush'd. The only other hero with defense that can bypass these maneuver is the Conqueror, but you're still looking at a complete stalement most of the time. What the Orochi needs is some form of risk/reward system for their Storm Rush because it's too easy to exploit for high damage. There's a lot of great suggestions in this thread. Mine is treating it like a zone attack; half their stamina when they execute it just like the Warden's sweep attack or the Raider's unblockable. And also consume stamina while they're holding onto it. This way, players can't spam the Storm Rush > combo and they can't always rely on it as a defensive mechanic. Also, blocked Storm Rush should stun the Orochi. Their Deflect speaks for itself, as it doesn't take skills to activate. In fact, it favors players without skills, as it triggers when you guard at the last moment. Super easy to pull off and punish players with. Like people have suggested, Deflect should be executed like some form of light parry. This way, it's got a risk/reward factor to it. Easy peasy. Overall, I'm basically just repeating what people say, but I really want to bring attention to those two key aspects of the Orochi. Because the general issue with them is that they are not a glass-cannon at all. There is no double edged sword to their design like they were intended to be. They have too many advantages and so little drawbacks to their moveset. The ironic thing is that fighting an Orochi has the feeling of what playing them SHOULD be. Unlike the Orochi, it's only the enemy players that will be punished dearly for making mistakes. This is why players feel like they're OP; because they never feel fair to fight. Personally, I've only lost once or twice against of them in a Duel in my hundreds of matches during the last closed alpha, but I rarely had fun fighting them because most of the time, I'm forced to be patient and wait for their attacks first. Or just play a Conqueror. [EDIT] The forums is derping and not showing my separated paragraphs...

So basically you have no issue fighting orochi's it seems? And as you stated its about adapting and changing your fighting style to overcome the so called broken OP orochi that everyone's talking about. Doesn't seem broken if ppl can beat them?

Good point above tho

[Ymir.exe]

And you can also beat Dark Souls naked without weapons. Doesn't make it balanced that way, just means you're good enough to overcome the odds being stacked against you. Orochi can be defeated, sure, but that doesn't make it any less OP.

[Be1dou]

So basically you have no issue fighting orochi's it seems? And as you stated its about adapting and changing your fighting style to overcome the so called broken OP orochi that everyone's talking about. Doesn't seem broken if ppl can beat them?

Good point above tho

Read my post again, I wrote out most of the issues I had with them.

Adapting to a different playstyle isn't the issue; it's how fundamentally broken the Orochi is for the enemy players.

Like warauidoko said, it's not impossible to beat them, but it doesn't mean they're not OP.